> ## Content Index > Fetch the complete content index at: https://www.ceo.com/llms.txt > Use this file to discover other available public pages before exploring further. # 7thonline CEO Max Ma: The AI supply chain management platform powering brands like Patagonia, Birkenstock, and Calvin Klein - URL: https://www.ceo.com/episodes/7thonline-ceo-max-ma/ - Published: 2025-06-26T10:00:08.000Z - Updated: 2026-08-25T01:44:59.000Z - Description: The 7thonline founder on Excel as retail's biggest enemy, the sizing problem nobody has solved, and the investor who backed him two months before September 11. - Author: Clint Betts # Max Ma was doing AI 25 years before it was cool Twenty years ago, people in the retail industry had a name for Max Ma and his team. "Some of the people didn't like us and called us the science guys, not as a compliment," Ma said on the CEO.com Podcast. "Today, I love to be called the science guys." Ma founded [7thonline](https://www.7thonline.com/?ref=ceo.com) in 1999 after years on the IT side of retail, including stints at HBO and Pantone, where he was [the lead developer for Pantone's Electronic Color Systems](https://www.citybiz.co/article/721831/qa-with-max-ma-ceo-and-founder-at-7thonline/?ref=ceo.com). What he saw in the industry bothered him. Companies doing billions in revenue planned their inventory by hand, and the results showed up on the sales floor. "There were a lot of inefficiencies in the retail industry, particularly on the supply chain side of the business," he said. "Customers often couldn't find their sizes, the products they like to purchase. So that led to me and the other team members of our business to start 7thonline to help retailers to improve their inventory decisions." The company started in an 800-square-foot office. It now operates globally, and its clients include Birkenstock, Calvin Klein, Tommy Hilfiger, and Patagonia. The bet from the beginning was artificial intelligence. 7thonline was building machine learning into demand planning decades before the term became a boardroom fixture, and Ma has watched the current boom with some amusement. He also thinks most people define AI too narrowly. "Right now, most people know about AI as a large language model. That's just one of many, many AI methodologies," he said. "Different business cases may require different AI capabilities and algorithms. So we've been aggressively iteratively developing all these AI capabilities over the past 25 years." Some of those capabilities forecast demand five years out. Others attack sizing, which Ma considers among the hardest problems in fashion. "How you can deliver the appropriate, customer-matching size profile for each retail location has been a holy grail of the challenge for the retail industry," he said. The company's latest release, an AI ranking engine called 7thSense, [launched at NRF 2026](https://www.7thonline.com/post/scaling-retail-intuition-to-intelligence/?ref=ceo.com) and scores new products against past winners down to style, color, and size at the individual store. Ask Ma what holds retailers back, and he doesn't talk about algorithms. "One of the biggest challenges has been everybody uses Excel," he said. "People have different versions, and it doesn't give the corporations a unified view. If you live with Excel all day long, you are not getting closer to AI." The tariff environment has pushed more retailers toward his door. "People have to reduce their risks by lowering unproductive inventory. That's probably the reason why we get a lot of inbound calls these days," he said. "I guess our sales team is busy writing orders." Twenty-six years in, Ma runs the company on a simple idea about leadership. "Everybody's supposed to be a leader in my team. It doesn't matter if you are a low-level team member or a high-level team member," he said. He hands his managers the same books he learned from, Ram Charan's "Know-How" and Jack Welch's "Winning," and treats them like textbooks. Every CEO.com Podcast conversation ends with the same question: who gave you a chance? Ma named [Alan Patricof](https://www.greycroft.com/team/alan-patricof/?ref=ceo.com), the venture capitalist who created Patricof & Co. Ventures, the predecessor to Apax Partners, and later co-founded Greycroft. Patricof invested in 7thonline in July 2001, two months before September 11. "If people were doing business back then, everybody could appreciate how critical that support was to our business," Ma said. "He has been my biggest mentor. I still seek out advice from him, and he's still active in the business world. He lives not too far away, in the Upper East Side. I call him up for advice, and we meet up." ```chapters 00:00:00 Introduction and Background 00:00:21 Founding 7thOnline 00:01:26 Business Evolution and Leadership 00:03:25 Daily Routine and AI Integration 00:04:54 AI in Retail and Supply Chain 00:06:30 AI Growth and Industry Impact 00:08:21 Moving Beyond Excel 00:09:55 Work-Life Balance 00:11:15 Reading Recommendations 00:13:32 Economic Outlook and Tariffs 00:15:00 Mentorship and Support 00:16:39 Closing Remarks ``` ```vtt WEBVTT 00:00:06.847 --> 00:00:08.691 Max,<00:00:07.168> thank<00:00:07.344> you<00:00:07.408> so<00:00:07.504> much<00:00:07.793> for<00:00:07.873> coming<00:00:08.130> on<00:00:08.274> the<00:00:08.306> show. 00:00:08.916 --> 00:00:09.669 Honored<00:00:09.156> to<00:00:09.236> have<00:00:09.557> you. 00:00:09.733 --> 00:00:12.476 You<00:00:09.894> are<00:00:09.974> the<00:00:10.118> founder<00:00:10.615> and<00:00:10.712> CEO<00:00:11.321> of<00:00:11.353> 7th<00:00:11.882> Online. 00:00:12.540 --> 00:00:15.426 You<00:00:12.620> founded<00:00:13.021> 7th<00:00:13.406> Online<00:00:13.823> in<00:00:13.983> 1999. 00:00:15.587 --> 00:00:19.371 Tell<00:00:15.715> us<00:00:15.891> why<00:00:16.052> you<00:00:16.148> founded<00:00:16.629> it<00:00:17.094> and<00:00:17.431> your<00:00:17.655> journey<00:00:18.136> as<00:00:18.233> being<00:00:18.473> CEO<00:00:18.858> of<00:00:18.938> this<00:00:19.098> company. 00:00:19.435 --> 00:00:20.446 It's<00:00:19.531> an<00:00:19.596> incredible<00:00:20.141> journey. 00:00:20.638 --> 00:00:21.007 Well<00:00:20.798> done. 00:00:21.424 --> 00:00:21.921 Thank<00:00:21.664> you. 00:00:22.306 --> 00:00:25.144 Uh,<00:00:22.338> it's<00:00:22.562> pleasure<00:00:23.043> to<00:00:23.188> be<00:00:23.364> on<00:00:23.444> your<00:00:23.845> call,<00:00:24.551> on<00:00:24.583> your<00:00:24.727> program. 00:00:25.192 --> 00:00:30.837 So,<00:00:25.994> uh,<00:00:26.235> before<00:00:26.571> 7th<00:00:26.956> Online,<00:00:27.614> I<00:00:27.774> was,<00:00:28.159> uh,<00:00:28.640> working<00:00:29.201> in<00:00:29.538> the<00:00:29.939> retail<00:00:30.324> industry. 00:00:31.703 --> 00:00:48.743 On<00:00:32.264> the<00:00:32.360> IT<00:00:32.680> side<00:00:33.210> of<00:00:33.322> the<00:00:33.466> business<00:00:34.251> and<00:00:34.348> then<00:00:34.668> realized<00:00:36.031> there<00:00:36.335> was<00:00:36.576> a<00:00:36.752> lot<00:00:37.858> of<00:00:38.596> inefficiencies<00:00:41.401> in<00:00:41.481> the<00:00:41.626> retail<00:00:42.058> industry,<00:00:42.523> particularly<00:00:44.190> on<00:00:44.447> the<00:00:45.184> supply<00:00:45.569> chain<00:00:45.810> side<00:00:46.306> of<00:00:46.435> the<00:00:46.531> business,<00:00:47.332> the<00:00:47.573> inventory<00:00:48.214> problems. 00:00:49.400 --> 00:01:01.215 Everybody<00:00:49.881> have<00:00:50.699> experienced<00:00:52.126> a<00:00:52.783> lot<00:00:53.023> of<00:00:53.264> leftover<00:00:54.706> and<00:00:54.851> also<00:00:56.053> customers<00:00:56.774> often<00:00:57.191> couldn't<00:00:57.496> find<00:00:58.073> their<00:00:58.249> sizes,<00:00:59.435> the<00:00:59.516> products<00:01:00.061> they<00:01:00.157> would<00:01:00.397> like<00:01:00.638> to<00:01:00.798> purchase. 00:01:01.439 --> 00:01:16.179 So<00:01:02.064> that<00:01:02.803> led<00:01:03.191> to<00:01:05.048> me<00:01:05.371> and<00:01:05.467> the<00:01:05.694> other<00:01:07.082> team<00:01:07.470> members<00:01:08.842> of<00:01:08.939> our<00:01:09.165> business<00:01:09.569> to<00:01:09.730> start<00:01:10.069> 7thOnline<00:01:10.957> to<00:01:11.119> help<00:01:11.442> retailers<00:01:12.800> to<00:01:12.978> improve<00:01:13.948> their<00:01:15.015> inventory<00:01:15.710> decisions. 00:01:16.680 --> 00:01:17.230 How's<00:01:16.874> it<00:01:16.939> going? 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00:15:12.361 --> 00:15:12.636 Yeah. 00:15:12.717 --> 00:15:20.903 So<00:15:16.013> one<00:15:16.256> of<00:15:16.482> my<00:15:17.371> early<00:15:17.807> investors,<00:15:18.825> his<00:15:19.148> name<00:15:19.552> is<00:15:19.860> Alan<00:15:20.290> Patrickoff. 00:15:21.085 --> 00:15:22.757 So<00:15:21.134> the<00:15:21.167> company<00:15:21.449> right<00:15:21.532> now<00:15:21.648> is<00:15:21.714> very<00:15:21.863> famous,<00:15:22.045> called<00:15:22.210> Apex,<00:15:22.492> A-P-E-X. 00:15:25.002 --> 00:15:25.260 APAX. 00:15:25.712 --> 00:15:25.955 Yeah. 00:15:26.052 --> 00:15:29.847 That's<00:15:26.375> for<00:15:26.601> his<00:15:26.778> name,<00:15:27.247> Alan<00:15:27.489> Patrickoff<00:15:28.474> Associates<00:15:29.152> Cross<00:15:29.443> Border. 00:15:30.331 --> 00:15:33.451 He<00:15:30.477> has<00:15:30.735> been,<00:15:32.011> you<00:15:32.092> know,<00:15:32.350> my<00:15:32.480> biggest<00:15:32.917> mentor. 00:15:33.629 --> 00:15:40.621 Also,<00:15:35.166> he<00:15:35.344> supported<00:15:36.218> us<00:15:38.258> during<00:15:38.581> those<00:15:38.986> most<00:15:39.714> difficult<00:15:40.200> time. 00:15:41.090 --> 00:15:50.218 So<00:15:41.252> he<00:15:41.718> actually<00:15:42.119> invested<00:15:42.682> in<00:15:42.875> 7th<00:15:43.341> Online<00:15:44.466> 2<00:15:44.707> months<00:15:45.333> before<00:15:45.751> September<00:15:46.394> 11th,<00:15:47.101> July<00:15:49.206> 2001. 00:15:50.460 --> 00:15:55.889 So<00:15:52.098> if<00:15:52.415> people<00:15:54.348> doing<00:15:54.669> business<00:15:55.247> back<00:15:55.568> then. 00:15:56.772 --> 00:16:04.384 Everybody<00:15:57.238> can<00:15:57.415> appreciate<00:15:58.121> how<00:15:59.004> critical<00:16:00.209> those<00:16:00.530> support<00:16:01.991> meant<00:16:02.794> to<00:16:03.741> our<00:16:03.918> business. 00:16:04.785 --> 00:16:08.093 And<00:16:05.026> he's<00:16:05.508> also<00:16:06.664> such<00:16:07.114> a<00:16:07.210> great<00:16:07.531> mentor. 00:16:08.575 --> 00:16:17.101 I<00:16:08.655> still<00:16:08.976> seek<00:16:09.442> out<00:16:09.699> advice<00:16:10.325> from<00:16:10.582> him<00:16:11.128> and<00:16:11.305> he's<00:16:11.851> still<00:16:13.537> active<00:16:14.500> in<00:16:15.640> business<00:16:16.122> world. 00:16:17.166 --> 00:16:19.944 He<00:16:17.246> lives<00:16:17.792> not<00:16:17.969> too<00:16:18.209> far<00:16:18.466> away,<00:16:19.077> up<00:16:19.253> east<00:16:19.526> side. 00:16:20.538 --> 00:16:21.437 I<00:16:20.682> call<00:16:20.923> him<00:16:21.020> Bob. 00:16:22.047 --> 00:16:24.310 For<00:16:22.224> advice<00:16:23.187> and<00:16:23.507> we<00:16:23.540> meet<00:16:24.053> up. 00:16:24.775 --> 00:16:28.980 So,<00:16:25.193> he's<00:16:27.038> one<00:16:27.263> of<00:16:27.359> the<00:16:27.520> most<00:16:27.921> important<00:16:28.563> mentor. 00:16:29.028 --> 00:16:38.770 He<00:16:29.269> used<00:16:29.446> to<00:16:29.542> sit<00:16:29.831> on<00:16:29.927> our<00:16:30.168> board<00:16:31.997> and<00:16:32.495> I<00:16:32.655> really<00:16:32.960> have<00:16:33.201> to<00:16:33.313> appreciate<00:16:34.180> the<00:16:34.325> help<00:16:35.448> and<00:16:35.689> advice<00:16:36.331> and<00:16:36.491> the<00:16:36.587> mentorship<00:16:37.374> over<00:16:37.550> the<00:16:37.711> years<00:16:38.176> he<00:16:38.337> gave<00:16:38.578> to<00:16:38.738> me. 00:16:39.300 --> 00:16:40.054 That's<00:16:39.557> incredible. 00:16:40.182 --> 00:16:42.092 Max,<00:16:40.584> thank<00:16:40.760> you<00:16:40.840> so<00:16:41.017> much<00:16:41.306> for<00:16:41.402> coming<00:16:41.643> on<00:16:41.787> the<00:16:41.819> show. 00:16:42.205 --> 00:16:42.702 What<00:16:42.365> an<00:16:42.510> honor. 00:16:42.831 --> 00:16:44.468 What<00:16:42.943> an<00:16:43.023> incredible<00:16:43.569> business<00:16:43.954> you've<00:16:44.115> built. 00:16:44.917 --> 00:16:45.912 What<00:16:45.029> a<00:16:45.093> legacy<00:16:45.559> you've<00:16:45.735> built. 00:16:45.976 --> 00:16:47.549 Congratulations<00:16:46.923> on<00:16:47.019> all<00:16:47.164> of<00:16:47.244> that. 00:16:47.907 --> 00:16:49.214 And<00:16:48.230> I<00:16:48.327> hope<00:16:48.488> to<00:16:48.553> have<00:16:48.666> you<00:16:48.795> on<00:16:48.908> again. 00:16:49.295 --> 00:16:49.763 That'd<00:16:49.457> be<00:16:49.537> great. 00:16:50.248 --> 00:16:51.119 Thank<00:16:50.490> you<00:16:50.586> very<00:16:50.829> much. 00:16:51.232 --> 00:16:51.894 It's<00:16:51.410> a<00:16:51.474> pleasure. 00:16:52.443 --> 00:16:52.975 Thanks,<00:16:52.685> Max. 00:16:53.137 --> 00:16:53.605 Have<00:16:53.250> a<00:16:53.330> good<00:16:53.460> one. 00:16:54.057 --> 00:16:54.331 Take<00:16:54.218> care. ```