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# Showrunner CEO Shane Snow: Journey from journalist to entrepreneur
- URL: https://www.ceo.com/episodes/author-shane-snow-the-modern-day-renaissance-man-2/
- Published: 2022-10-25T14:00:34.000Z
- Updated: 2026-09-02T01:27:59.000Z
- Description: Shane Snow built a company on the idea that most rules are old solutions to problems that no longer exist.
- Author: Clint Betts

# Why is the newspaper so big?

Some years ago, the finance team at the Independent, the London daily, made a modest proposal. The paper was printed on broadsheets, the enormous format that signals seriousness in the news business. Printing them cost a fortune. Switch to tabloid size, finance said, and the savings would cover a round of layoffs.

The newsroom refused. Tabloids were for celebrity gossip and Elvis sightings. Readers respected a big paper. Then somebody did what newsrooms are supposed to do and reported the question out. Newspapers had not always been big. In the 1850s England taxed papers by the page, and publishers responded by printing pages the size of tablecloths. The tax was repealed. The tablecloths stayed. A century and a half later, a roomful of journalists was defending a tax dodge as a matter of principle.

Shane Snow told that story on the CEO.com Podcast on October 25, 2022, and it is the best short account of how he thinks. "The smart solution to that problem was the best thing they could come up with at the time," he said. "And that is not the solution you'd come up with today if you're starting a newspaper company from scratch." He calls the habit lateral thinking. It is the subject of his first book, Smartcuts, and the reason he has never stayed in one line of work for long.

Snow grew up outside a small town in Idaho. His father was an auto mechanic who went back to school and became an engineer at a nuclear plant. His mother taught sign language to deaf students and, in his words, tricked her kids into reading. He and his brother built go-karts and computers. He paid for college by building websites and by selling stickers of a UFO his roommate claimed to have seen. What he took from his father was the conviction that anything that looks like magic is made of parts, and the parts can be understood. He took from his mother the habit of learning something to teach it.

He went to journalism school in New York in 2009\. His father asked why anyone would pay for that when newspapers train reporters for free. Snow says the degree bought him a network he did not have coming out of Idaho, plus editors willing to crack down on his prose. The more durable lesson was that investigative reporting is mostly a problem of access, and access is most of what sales and fundraising are too.

The other lesson was how to ask a question. Snow's complaint about most interviewers is that they finally get in the room and then hand the subject a multiple-choice test. Was it this, or was it that, or maybe this? "You don't give me options because then you're going to lead the way," he said. "You want to see where this goes." He said this by way of complimenting the show's first question, which had been four words long. He then answered it for six minutes.

His early beats at Mashable and Wired put him next to the founders of Foursquare, Tumblr, and BuzzFeed while those companies were still small. He wrote about them and got jealous. The side project that turned into a company was a marketplace matching laid-off newspaper reporters with paying work. The people paying turned out to be brands that had decided to start blogs, and the marketplace became Contently, a content marketing software company that, by his [own account](https://shanesnow.com/official-bio?ref=ceo.com), has found work for more than 100,000 freelance writers. He still sits on the board and still works out of the office when he is in New York.

Contently is where he learned he did not know how to lead. A builder who likes to be hands-on suddenly had 100 employees whose job was to be hands-on for him. His response was to write about the problem in public, roughly 100 LinkedIn posts' worth, then take a sabbatical and turn the posts into a book. Dream Teams argues that most teams get worse as they get bigger, because the people on them come to think alike. Teams that keep improving keep adding people who disagree, and they have a boss who can lose an argument. "If the boss is never willing to change their mind," he said, "then none of it's any good. You just have debates and the person in power gets their way."

Asked about Coinbase and Basecamp, which had banned political talk at work, he would not take a side. He offered a marriage statistic instead. Couples do not split because they fight. They split when they stop discussing what matters. Companies fail the same way, and so do the diversity efforts that hire people for their different perspectives and then make it costly to voice one. His rule is that any conversation, about an election or a product roadmap, stops being useful the moment it turns personal. "If I'm worrying about the decision we make because of my promotion or because of how I'm going to look," he said, "that means it's personal." The leader's job is to notice that moment and name it.

He was candid about the business of ideas. A nonfiction book, he said, is a calling card for consulting and speaking, and speaking pays far better than books. He tested the thesis of Dream Teams on stages for years before writing it, in part to see whether it would hold an audience. Television appearances sell almost no books anymore. Podcast interviews sell some. He was, he noted, grateful to be asked about the book. He also mentioned a middle-grade novel he and his wife had written during the pandemic, about two kids in space, and that a few hundred 10-year-olds had read the drafts.

The company he was actually there to talk about was SHOWRUNNER. Snow had moved into television and independent film for the same reason he had moved into business writing before it: it reached more people. He started a production company with his wife, producer and showrunner Sylvia Brindis, and a partner. When the pandemic capped crew sizes, they rigged cameras and lights with smart home controls so that a handful of people could shoot a commercial. That grew into software for virtual production, the LED-wall stages that let a Chicago soundstage pass for a street in Croatia. In May 2022, the company announced it had [raised $4 million](https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/new-york-film-tech-upstart-showrunner-raises-4m-from-top-vcs-moves-hq-to-chicago-301542065.html?ref=ceo.com) in a round led by the Chicago fund Lightbank, with Craft Ventures and Gaingels participating, and that it had moved from New York to Chicago.

Why Chicago? Film tax credits, mostly, and rumors they were about to get better. Cheap enough real estate to build an R&D showroom. A film community he described as helpful before you have had a chance to earn it, which he did not say about Los Angeles. He was applying the newspaper test to his own industry. Productions choose Atlanta and Los Angeles because productions have always chosen them.

The second company learned from the first. Cash flow and planning, he said, are things you get wrong once. On people, he hired slowly, using well-paid contractors for roles with a natural end date so nobody would need to be laid off, and building remote work norms from the start rather than retrofitting them. Half a dozen people sat in the Chicago office. The rest were wherever they were.

---

That was nearly four years ago, and the record since then is incomplete.

In April 2023, SHOWRUNNER won [Product of the Year](https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/lightbank-and-craft-ventures-backed-showrunner-wins-product-of-the-year-at-nab-for-its-virtual-production-toolkit-301802548.html?ref=ceo.com) at the National Association of Broadcasters convention for its virtual production software. Snow noted in the announcement that a year earlier the company could not afford badges for the whole team and had taken meetings outside the building. Snow's [current bio](https://shanesnow.com/official-bio?ref=ceo.com) describes the company's technology in the past tense and lists two newer ventures, the production companies The Mad Ones and Container. The short version of the same bio still calls him a CEO without saying of what. [Crunchbase](https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/showrunner?ref=ceo.com) lists the company as active. Whether it is still a software business or has become the toolkit for his own productions, nothing public says, and the CEO.com Podcast has not asked him.

What is clear is that the producing took over. Snow is a Tony Award-winning producer on The Outsiders, with credits on Burlesque and Jo: The Little Women Musical, and in May 2026 he, Rob O'Neill, and Anthony Salamon [announced Warbucks](https://www.broadwayworld.com/industry/article/New-Musical-WARBUCKS-About-Daddy-Warbucks-From-ANNIE-is-in-Development-20260518?ref=ceo.com), a musical about Oliver Warbucks in the years before Annie. Fluff Piece, a media literacy series for preschoolers that he created with Brindis and Brian Donegan, [launched on Prime Video](https://tedhope.substack.com/p/how-to-surf-the-indie-tv-series-wave) through the Wonder Project channel in July 2026\. Snow wrote that the 22 episodes were funded entirely with independent investment and donations, no studio and no loans, and that he and Brindis kept the IP. His bio now lists Mexico City as home, where he and Brindis live with the child they were expecting when he spoke to the show. Mexico City was, he said in 2022, one of the cities SHOWRUNNER looked at and passed on before choosing Chicago.

The show ends every conversation with the same question, because the chances a person gives are as important as the chances he takes. Snow named a Wired editor who assigned a feature to a blogger with no business writing one, and a Columbia entrepreneurship director who was not supposed to meet with journalism students, waved him in through a side door, and closed the blinds. That man has since invested in two of his companies.

The chance he lingered on was Sylvia's. He was divorced, had decided he would never marry again, and, by his own description, was a bit of a mess when they started dating. "I think she gave me the chance to grow in a way that I think a less mature person would've said, 'I'm out of here,'" he said. Then he described his mornings. Up by 6:30, coffee shop, an hour of writing or journaling, no meetings before noon, none after five.

```chapters
00:00:00 Introducing Shane Snow
00:02:26 Growing Up In Idaho And Early Influences
00:06:38 How Writing And Journalism Shaped His Career
00:09:46 The State Of Journalism And Rise Of Substack
00:13:56 From Journalist To Founding Contently
00:16:54 Lessons On Leadership And Teamwork
00:20:38 Should Companies Ban Political Talk At Work
00:26:37 Understanding Lateral Thinking
00:31:57 The Process Of Writing Multiple Books
00:35:08 Promoting A Book And The Credibility Stamp
00:39:34 Chances Given That Changed His Life
00:43:16 Building Showrunner And Virtual Production
00:48:44 Corporate Studios And Podcast Production
00:50:33 Remote Work And The Future Of Meetings
00:53:13 Shane's Daily Deep Work Routine
```

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How<00:02:54.712> I<00:02:54.793> got<00:02:54.953> my<00:02:55.050> start<00:02:55.515> was<00:02:56.061> I<00:02:56.158> grew<00:02:56.254> up<00:02:56.399> in<00:02:56.479> Idaho<00:02:57.764> in<00:02:58.486> sort<00:02:58.631> of<00:02:58.727> a<00:02:59.032> small<00:02:59.530> place<00:03:00.156> outside<00:03:00.558> of<00:03:00.654> a<00:03:00.718> small<00:03:00.975> place.

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And<00:03:02.420> my<00:03:02.565> dad's<00:03:02.838> an<00:03:02.966> engineer,<00:03:03.689> so<00:03:03.785> he<00:03:03.882> was<00:03:04.026> an<00:03:04.171> auto<00:03:04.267> mechanic.

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And<00:03:05.472> then<00:03:05.616> he<00:03:05.712> got<00:03:05.841> his<00:03:05.953> master's<00:03:06.339> degree<00:03:06.580> when<00:03:06.740> I<00:03:06.837> was,<00:03:07.222> you<00:03:07.655> know,<00:03:08.121> early<00:03:08.346> teens<00:03:08.828> and<00:03:09.069> he<00:03:09.149> became<00:03:09.486> an<00:03:09.566> engineer<00:03:09.952> at<00:03:09.984> a<00:03:10.032> nuclear<00:03:10.369> power<00:03:10.610> plant.

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So<00:03:11.413> I<00:03:11.558> grew<00:03:11.718> up<00:03:11.975> fixing<00:03:12.361> cars,<00:03:13.324> learning<00:03:13.565> about<00:03:13.758> science,<00:03:14.625> learning<00:03:14.769> about<00:03:14.946> technology.

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And<00:03:16.375> I<00:03:16.552> loved<00:03:17.178> taking<00:03:17.499> things<00:03:17.692> apart<00:03:18.318> and<00:03:18.479> building<00:03:18.864> things.

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And,<00:03:20.566> and<00:03:20.647> that,<00:03:20.871> I<00:03:20.968> think,<00:03:21.112> is<00:03:21.209> a<00:03:21.434> theme<00:03:22.092> The<00:03:22.156> other<00:03:22.332> thing<00:03:22.557> is<00:03:22.717> my<00:03:22.830> mom<00:03:23.439> is—<00:03:24.016> she<00:03:24.161> was<00:03:24.321> an<00:03:24.401> educator.

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She<00:03:25.620> taught<00:03:25.861> sign<00:03:26.165> language,<00:03:27.080> taught<00:03:27.464> deaf<00:03:27.689> students,<00:03:28.330> and<00:03:28.427> then,<00:03:28.828> you<00:03:28.924> know,<00:03:29.453> raised<00:03:29.854> us<00:03:30.014> kids<00:03:30.351> and<00:03:30.656> tricked<00:03:30.897> us<00:03:31.009> into<00:03:32.260> reading<00:03:32.661> and<00:03:32.757> learning.

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And<00:03:33.238> so<00:03:33.703> I<00:03:33.783> had<00:03:33.896> these<00:03:34.120> two<00:03:34.297> things<00:03:34.762> that<00:03:35.724> in<00:03:36.029> hindsight<00:03:36.686> I<00:03:36.766> think<00:03:36.911> have<00:03:37.007> been<00:03:37.552> themes<00:03:38.194> for<00:03:38.290> my<00:03:38.515> career,<00:03:38.996> which<00:03:39.236> is<00:03:39.717> always<00:03:39.974> being<00:03:40.134> really<00:03:40.439> eager<00:03:40.615> to<00:03:40.840> learn<00:03:41.097> and<00:03:41.177> to<00:03:41.337> teach<00:03:42.604> what<00:03:42.684> I'm<00:03:42.781> learning<00:03:43.021> and<00:03:43.117> to<00:03:43.246> use<00:03:43.502> teaching<00:03:43.887> as<00:03:43.983> an<00:03:44.064> excuse<00:03:44.545> to<00:03:44.689> learn.

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And<00:03:45.106> you<00:03:45.202> see,<00:03:45.748> I<00:03:45.764> think<00:03:45.908> great<00:03:46.068> parents<00:03:46.453> do<00:03:46.549> this,<00:03:46.790> right?

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They<00:03:47.832> encourage<00:03:48.233> you<00:03:48.314> to<00:03:48.394> get<00:03:48.618> into,<00:03:49.180> you<00:03:49.212> know,<00:03:49.356> to<00:03:49.581> read<00:03:49.933> some<00:03:50.158> book<00:03:50.318> because<00:03:50.543> they<00:03:50.703> want<00:03:50.799> to<00:03:50.944> read<00:03:51.056> it<00:03:51.184> too.

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Or,<00:03:52.002> you<00:03:52.066> know,<00:03:52.162> to<00:03:52.243> explore<00:03:52.627> your<00:03:52.740> interests<00:03:52.948> because<00:03:53.188> they<00:03:53.445> want<00:03:53.589> to<00:03:54.166> learn<00:03:54.326> about<00:03:54.551> those<00:03:54.727> too.

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And<00:03:55.016> I<00:03:55.032> think<00:03:55.128> those<00:03:55.304> are<00:03:55.449> great.

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So,<00:03:56.571> I<00:03:56.651> take<00:03:56.811> that<00:03:57.116> mindset<00:03:58.478> and<00:03:58.670> that<00:03:58.831> explains<00:03:59.151> some<00:03:59.312> of<00:03:59.456> the<00:04:00.161> entrepreneurial<00:04:00.802> ADD<00:04:01.363> and,<00:04:01.940> you<00:04:02.021> know,<00:04:02.117> some<00:04:02.341> of<00:04:02.421> the<00:04:02.502> side<00:04:02.806> quests<00:04:03.063> like<00:04:03.207> doing<00:04:03.383> comedy<00:04:04.249> and<00:04:04.409> all<00:04:04.569> that.

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But<00:04:05.611> with,<00:04:06.333> you<00:04:06.365> know,<00:04:06.749> the<00:04:06.910> engineering<00:04:07.471> thing<00:04:07.695> from<00:04:07.855> my<00:04:08.032> dad,<00:04:08.593> I<00:04:08.673> became<00:04:09.779> fascinated<00:04:10.420> by<00:04:10.596> the<00:04:10.837> idea<00:04:11.542> that<00:04:12.360> everything<00:04:13.065> that<00:04:13.241> seems<00:04:13.562> like<00:04:13.738> magic<00:04:14.187> that<00:04:14.283> exists<00:04:14.684> in<00:04:14.828> the<00:04:14.908> world<00:04:15.790> is<00:04:15.982> made<00:04:16.303> of<00:04:16.447> components<00:04:17.008> that<00:04:17.088> have<00:04:17.153> been<00:04:17.329> put<00:04:17.489> together.

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I<00:04:18.934> can<00:04:19.096> do<00:04:19.193> that<00:04:19.420> too.

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I<00:04:19.906> can<00:04:20.376> take<00:04:20.538> things<00:04:20.716> apart,<00:04:21.024> figure<00:04:21.202> out<00:04:21.283> how<00:04:21.364> they<00:04:21.510> work,<00:04:21.688> and<00:04:21.753> I<00:04:21.850> can<00:04:22.077> build<00:04:22.255> my<00:04:22.417> own.

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So,<00:04:23.033> you<00:04:23.066> know,<00:04:23.390> my<00:04:23.471> brother<00:04:23.795> and<00:04:23.876> I,<00:04:24.038> we<00:04:24.183> built<00:04:24.362> go-karts,<00:04:25.010> we<00:04:25.172> built<00:04:25.399> forts,<00:04:26.440> built<00:04:26.618> computers,<00:04:27.671> and<00:04:28.903> that<00:04:29.065> kind<00:04:29.227> of<00:04:29.389> led<00:04:29.632> to,<00:04:30.426> you<00:04:30.459> know,<00:04:30.751> wanting<00:04:30.994> to<00:04:31.091> be<00:04:31.172> an<00:04:31.253> entrepreneur,<00:04:32.290> wanting<00:04:32.485> to<00:04:32.566> learn<00:04:32.776> computer<00:04:33.117> science,<00:04:34.172> to<00:04:34.591> do<00:04:34.737> computer<00:04:35.060> stuff.

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And<00:04:37.319> then<00:04:37.642> at<00:04:37.723> a<00:04:37.739> certain<00:04:38.126> point,<00:04:38.675> I<00:04:38.852> was<00:04:39.175> also,<00:04:39.885> because<00:04:40.144> of<00:04:40.208> the<00:04:40.289> reading<00:04:40.612> thing,<00:04:40.854> because<00:04:41.177> of<00:04:41.274> my<00:04:41.580> mom,<00:04:42.710> I<00:04:42.791> wanted<00:04:42.968> to<00:04:43.049> be<00:04:43.146> a<00:04:43.357> writer<00:04:43.638> also.

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Which,<00:04:45.206> you<00:04:45.302> know,<00:04:45.527> two<00:04:45.639> different<00:04:45.943> things,<00:04:46.184> being<00:04:46.360> an<00:04:46.889> engineer<00:04:47.386> and<00:04:47.466> being<00:04:47.626> a<00:04:47.691> writer.

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Yeah.

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And,<00:04:50.015> and<00:04:50.111> I<00:04:50.415> got—<00:04:51.217> I<00:04:51.233> was<00:04:51.393> in<00:04:51.489> school<00:04:52.259> and<00:04:52.579> I<00:04:52.820> got<00:04:52.980> a<00:04:53.060> job<00:04:53.397> at<00:04:53.477> a<00:04:53.493> newspaper<00:04:54.984> and<00:04:55.384> I<00:04:55.625> loved<00:04:55.865> it<00:04:55.945> so<00:04:56.138> much.

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My<00:04:57.067> roommate<00:04:57.244> was<00:04:57.404> an<00:04:57.500> editor<00:04:57.805> at<00:04:57.885> the<00:04:57.965> newspaper<00:04:58.526> and<00:04:58.911> I<00:04:58.927> was<00:04:59.071> like,<00:04:59.215> this<00:04:59.584> is—<00:04:59.728> I<00:04:59.792> don't<00:05:00.225> know,<00:05:00.369> still,<00:05:01.491> this<00:05:01.716> was<00:05:01.828> in<00:05:01.956> Idaho<00:05:02.228> still.

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Yeah,<00:05:03.014> that's<00:05:03.415> cool.

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And,<00:05:04.521> and<00:05:04.633> so<00:05:04.841> for<00:05:04.921> the<00:05:04.953> school<00:05:05.178> newspaper,<00:05:05.562> I<00:05:05.578> started<00:05:05.883> writing<00:05:06.139> and<00:05:06.204> I<00:05:06.236> said,<00:05:06.604> oh,<00:05:07.245> this<00:05:07.486> is<00:05:07.582> what<00:05:07.726> I<00:05:07.822> want<00:05:07.967> to<00:05:08.063> do.

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I<00:05:08.608> want<00:05:08.704> to<00:05:08.928> write<00:05:09.345> about<00:05:09.746> business.

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I<00:05:10.211> want<00:05:10.371> to<00:05:10.451> write<00:05:10.708> about<00:05:10.884> entrepreneurship.

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I<00:05:11.573> want<00:05:11.701> to<00:05:11.814> write<00:05:11.990> about<00:05:12.150> technology.

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And,<00:05:13.657> uh,<00:05:13.834> and<00:05:13.914> so<00:05:14.059> that<00:05:14.219> became<00:05:14.460> my<00:05:14.941> career<00:05:15.181> for<00:05:15.342> a<00:05:15.358> while.

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I<00:05:16.064> went<00:05:16.160> to<00:05:16.240> journalism<00:05:16.657> school<00:05:17.042> and,<00:05:17.283> uh,<00:05:17.668> you<00:05:18.021> know,<00:05:18.246> and<00:05:18.631> I<00:05:18.871> wanted<00:05:19.112> to<00:05:19.192> learn<00:05:19.465> about<00:05:19.834> companies<00:05:20.251> and,<00:05:20.652> you<00:05:20.748> know,<00:05:20.957> use<00:05:21.117> writing<00:05:21.438> as<00:05:21.614> an<00:05:21.679> excuse<00:05:21.999> to<00:05:22.080> meet<00:05:22.272> incredible<00:05:22.978> people.

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And,<00:05:23.925> uh,<00:05:24.326> and<00:05:24.422> then<00:05:25.224> at<00:05:25.304> a<00:05:25.320> certain<00:05:25.625> point<00:05:26.588> I<00:05:26.604> sort<00:05:26.812> of<00:05:26.973> caught<00:05:27.293> the<00:05:27.390> bug<00:05:27.935> of<00:05:28.192> entrepreneurship<00:05:28.930> again<00:05:29.299> and<00:05:29.475> decided,<00:05:29.860> no,<00:05:29.940> I'm<00:05:30.005> going<00:05:30.117> to<00:05:30.197> build<00:05:30.422> something<00:05:30.759> now.

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And<00:05:31.240> then<00:05:31.384> after<00:05:31.625> that<00:05:31.962> I<00:05:32.026> decided<00:05:32.347> to<00:05:32.427> write<00:05:32.619> about<00:05:32.844> it.

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And<00:05:33.085> then<00:05:33.229> after<00:05:33.807> that<00:05:34.047> I<00:05:34.111> decided<00:05:34.368> to<00:05:34.448> build<00:05:34.609> another<00:05:34.930> thing.

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And,<00:05:35.956> um,<00:05:36.935> yeah.

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And<00:05:37.272> so<00:05:37.352> that's<00:05:37.577> been,<00:05:38.138> been<00:05:38.298> sort<00:05:38.475> of<00:05:38.619> the<00:05:38.699> theme<00:05:39.117> is<00:05:39.646> jumping<00:05:39.903> between<00:05:40.304> these<00:05:40.465> two<00:05:40.690> worlds<00:05:41.172> of<00:05:41.348> exploring<00:05:41.990> and<00:05:42.135> learning<00:05:42.553> and<00:05:42.713> building<00:05:43.115> things<00:05:43.436> and<00:05:43.516> then<00:05:43.677> writing<00:05:43.998> and<00:05:44.142> teaching<00:05:44.463> about<00:05:44.720> them.

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And<00:05:45.057> it's<00:05:45.587> been<00:05:45.700> a<00:05:45.764> very<00:05:45.925> satisfying<00:05:46.551> career.

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I,<00:05:47.289> I<00:05:47.450> think,<00:05:48.012> you<00:05:48.092> know,<00:05:48.317> I<00:05:48.397> get<00:05:48.574> to<00:05:50.083> hobnob<00:05:50.822> with<00:05:51.047> people<00:05:51.448> who<00:05:51.545> are<00:05:52.026> so<00:05:52.428> incredible,<00:05:53.552> but<00:05:53.712> it's<00:05:53.873> because<00:05:54.595> I've<00:05:55.061> sort<00:05:55.174> of<00:05:55.318> hacked<00:05:55.623> my<00:05:55.784> way<00:05:56.025> into<00:05:56.217> the<00:05:56.346> room<00:05:56.667> and<00:05:56.763> a<00:05:56.779> lot<00:05:56.988> of<00:05:57.068> that<00:05:57.149> has<00:05:57.245> been<00:05:57.406> through<00:05:57.646> wanting<00:05:57.871> to<00:05:57.968> learn<00:05:58.144> about<00:05:58.369> them<00:05:58.465> and<00:05:58.594> then<00:05:58.754> tell<00:05:58.931> their<00:05:59.011> stories.

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So<00:06:01.002> yeah,<00:06:01.179> I<00:06:01.259> studied<00:06:01.645> journalism<00:06:02.303> too,<00:06:03.250> and<00:06:03.299> I<00:06:03.315> don't<00:06:03.572> know<00:06:04.053> what<00:06:04.214> your<00:06:04.455> sense<00:06:04.792> is.

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I,<00:06:05.274> I,<00:06:05.498> I<00:06:05.595> felt<00:06:05.739> like<00:06:05.852> that<00:06:05.980> was<00:06:06.093> a<00:06:06.157> huge<00:06:06.478> waste<00:06:06.735> of<00:06:06.799> time.

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Uh,<00:06:08.565> studying<00:06:09.929> journalism.

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Yeah.

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Except<00:06:12.080> for<00:06:12.257> this.

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So<00:06:12.819> I<00:06:12.979> thought<00:06:13.204> that<00:06:13.316> at<00:06:13.445> the<00:06:13.525> time<00:06:13.846> that<00:06:13.958> it<00:06:14.087> was<00:06:14.408> a<00:06:14.424> huge<00:06:14.665> waste<00:06:14.889> of<00:06:14.921> time.

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Now,<00:06:15.885> let<00:06:16.045> me<00:06:16.190> clarify<00:06:16.671> that,<00:06:16.976> that<00:06:17.137> I,<00:06:17.313> that<00:06:17.474> I<00:06:17.570> now<00:06:18.035> feel<00:06:18.581> like<00:06:19.480> my<00:06:20.026> career<00:06:20.845> for<00:06:21.069> whatever,<00:06:21.326> whatever<00:06:21.727> type<00:06:21.904> of<00:06:22.032> career<00:06:22.273> I've<00:06:22.386> had,<00:06:22.851> like<00:06:23.156> the<00:06:23.477> advantage<00:06:23.894> I've<00:06:24.039> had<00:06:24.215> is<00:06:24.360> the<00:06:24.440> ability<00:06:24.777> to<00:06:24.857> communicate<00:06:25.323> and<00:06:25.419> the<00:06:25.500> ability<00:06:25.885> to<00:06:25.981> write.

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And<00:06:26.366> that's<00:06:26.527> what<00:06:26.623> I<00:06:26.687> want<00:06:26.784> to<00:06:26.848> ask<00:06:27.185> you.

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We've<00:06:27.506> done<00:06:27.667> this<00:06:27.891> like<00:06:28.068> at<00:06:28.164> such<00:06:28.389> a<00:06:28.469> bigger<00:06:28.710> level.

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Um,<00:06:30.299> how<00:06:30.700> has<00:06:31.198> the<00:06:31.358> ability<00:06:32.081> to<00:06:32.402> communicate<00:06:33.525> and<00:06:33.670> the<00:06:33.766> ability<00:06:34.408> to<00:06:34.810> write<00:06:35.685> helped<00:06:36.017> your<00:06:36.199> career?

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Yeah,<00:06:39.221> it's,<00:06:39.883> uh,<00:06:39.947> to<00:06:40.044> me<00:06:40.674> it's<00:06:41.239> everything<00:06:42.046> because<00:06:42.692> in<00:06:42.853> part<00:06:43.257> it's<00:06:43.435> what<00:06:43.580> I'm<00:06:43.758> most<00:06:44.081> passionate<00:06:44.484> about<00:06:45.114> is<00:06:45.614> writing<00:06:45.953> and<00:06:46.099> communicating<00:06:46.648> and<00:06:46.728> telling<00:06:47.003> stories.

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And<00:06:47.520> so<00:06:48.339> that<00:06:49.255> I<00:06:49.463> use<00:06:49.785> that<00:06:49.961> as<00:06:50.042> an<00:06:50.138> excuse<00:06:50.684> to<00:06:50.845> do<00:06:51.006> things<00:06:51.311> that<00:06:51.407> might<00:06:51.712> otherwise<00:06:52.532> be<00:06:52.676> hard<00:06:52.949> or<00:06:53.078> might<00:06:53.335> otherwise<00:06:53.737> not<00:06:53.897> have<00:06:54.058> done.

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So<00:06:55.022> for<00:06:55.199> me,<00:06:55.809> it's,<00:06:56.130> uh,<00:06:56.452> because<00:06:57.126> it's<00:06:57.255> the<00:06:57.400> thing<00:06:57.513> I<00:06:57.595> love<00:06:57.757> the<00:06:57.823> most,<00:06:58.571> um,<00:06:59.043> writing<00:06:59.629> that,<00:06:59.856> uh,<00:07:00.345> yeah,<00:07:00.589> that<00:07:00.686> there's<00:07:00.914> that.

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I'll<00:07:01.679> say<00:07:02.656> You<00:07:02.688> know,<00:07:02.816> when<00:07:02.913> I<00:07:02.993> went<00:07:03.137> to<00:07:03.218> journalism<00:07:03.619> school,<00:07:04.742> my<00:07:04.918> dad<00:07:05.223> was<00:07:05.320> like,<00:07:05.480> why<00:07:05.544> are<00:07:05.624> you<00:07:05.705> going<00:07:05.785> to<00:07:05.865> pay<00:07:05.977> money<00:07:06.202> to<00:07:06.266> go<00:07:06.363> to<00:07:06.443> journalism<00:07:06.844> school?

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You<00:07:07.823> know,<00:07:08.449> get<00:07:08.609> a<00:07:08.689> job<00:07:08.946> as<00:07:09.090> a<00:07:09.155> journalist<00:07:09.540> if<00:07:09.572> you<00:07:09.796> really<00:07:10.037> want<00:07:10.165> to<00:07:10.197> do<00:07:10.294> that.

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First<00:07:10.599> of<00:07:10.631> all,<00:07:10.679> are<00:07:10.839> you<00:07:10.920> sure?

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But<00:07:12.043> get<00:07:12.139> a<00:07:12.155> job<00:07:12.396> as<00:07:12.476> a<00:07:12.524> journalist,<00:07:12.797> get<00:07:12.941> trained<00:07:13.182> on<00:07:13.262> the<00:07:13.326> job.

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That's<00:07:13.728> how<00:07:13.760> most<00:07:14.129> journalists<00:07:14.466> do<00:07:14.642> it.

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And<00:07:15.412> I<00:07:15.428> was<00:07:15.653> grateful,<00:07:17.033> I<00:07:17.354> think<00:07:18.076> in<00:07:18.156> part<00:07:18.477> because<00:07:19.023> I<00:07:19.039> didn't<00:07:19.440> have<00:07:19.921> a<00:07:20.082> network,<00:07:21.606> you<00:07:21.686> know,<00:07:22.007> growing<00:07:22.312> up<00:07:22.489> in<00:07:22.713> a<00:07:22.745> small<00:07:22.970> town<00:07:23.146> in<00:07:23.227> Idaho.

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I<00:07:23.692> didn't<00:07:23.933> know<00:07:24.735> people<00:07:25.457> that<00:07:26.099> I,<00:07:26.821> you<00:07:26.853> know,<00:07:27.142> through<00:07:27.366> going<00:07:27.543> to<00:07:27.864> journalism<00:07:28.249> school<00:07:28.425> in<00:07:28.538> New<00:07:28.634> York<00:07:28.746> City,<00:07:28.971> I<00:07:28.987> was<00:07:29.083> able<00:07:29.260> to<00:07:29.372> meet<00:07:29.629> and<00:07:29.709> be<00:07:29.870> mentored<00:07:30.351> and<00:07:30.913> Those<00:07:31.073> relationships<00:07:31.554> have<00:07:31.635> really<00:07:31.859> helped.

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So<00:07:32.581> there's<00:07:32.822> value<00:07:33.079> to<00:07:33.239> that.

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There's<00:07:34.106> also<00:07:34.347> value<00:07:34.684> to<00:07:35.406> kind<00:07:35.566> of<00:07:35.711> having<00:07:36.048> these<00:07:36.208> taskmaster<00:07:37.973> teachers<00:07:39.241> really<00:07:39.722> crack<00:07:39.963> down<00:07:40.076> on<00:07:40.140> my<00:07:40.300> writing.

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But<00:07:41.183> I'll<00:07:41.279> say<00:07:41.423> the<00:07:41.600> things<00:07:42.146> that<00:07:42.386> have<00:07:42.547> transferred<00:07:43.108> to<00:07:44.376> entrepreneurship<00:07:45.275> or<00:07:45.660> building<00:07:46.141> things<00:07:46.382> from<00:07:46.478> journalism<00:07:46.896> school<00:07:47.281> that<00:07:47.425> I<00:07:47.826> think<00:07:47.939> about<00:07:48.099> the<00:07:48.179> most<00:07:48.869> are<00:07:50.249> investigative<00:07:50.875> journalism<00:07:51.309> in<00:07:51.373> particular<00:07:52.175> is<00:07:52.480> all<00:07:52.576> about<00:07:52.897> figuring<00:07:53.298> out<00:07:53.523> how<00:07:53.684> you're<00:07:53.780> going<00:07:53.892> to<00:07:53.940> get<00:07:54.245> access.

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And<00:07:55.625> I<00:07:55.786> think<00:07:56.107> a<00:07:56.187> lot<00:07:56.508> of<00:07:56.668> like<00:07:56.813> if<00:07:56.893> you're<00:07:56.957> a<00:07:56.973> salesperson,<00:07:57.631> that<00:07:57.856> is,<00:07:58.193> you<00:07:58.241> know,<00:07:58.418> half<00:07:58.658> the<00:07:58.738> battle.

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Are<00:07:59.059> you<00:07:59.092> going<00:07:59.188> to<00:07:59.236> get<00:07:59.461> access<00:07:59.798> to<00:07:59.878> the<00:07:59.958> people<00:08:00.263> you<00:08:00.359> want<00:08:00.520> to<00:08:00.600> talk<00:08:00.857> to?

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And<00:08:02.109> so<00:08:02.607> the<00:08:03.249> repetitions<00:08:04.437> of<00:08:04.855> getting<00:08:05.240> access<00:08:05.657> for<00:08:05.818> the<00:08:05.914> story<00:08:06.605> have<00:08:06.765> helped<00:08:07.038> in<00:08:07.183> getting<00:08:07.424> access<00:08:07.745> for<00:08:08.146> investors<00:08:08.949> or<00:08:09.110> for<00:08:09.254> sales<00:08:09.575> purposes<00:08:09.993> for<00:08:10.153> business.

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The<00:08:11.679> other,<00:08:12.080> I<00:08:12.160> think,<00:08:12.401> that<00:08:12.498> I<00:08:12.867> come<00:08:13.044> back<00:08:13.268> to<00:08:13.445> a<00:08:13.509> lot<00:08:13.846> is<00:08:14.392> asking<00:08:15.356> questions<00:08:15.998> well.

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So<00:08:18.326> a<00:08:18.422> lot<00:08:18.647> of—<00:08:18.744> you<00:08:18.888> know<00:08:19.065> this,<00:08:19.386> you<00:08:19.643> know,<00:08:19.964> if<00:08:20.028> you<00:08:20.253> interview<00:08:20.654> people,<00:08:21.216> you<00:08:21.248> know,<00:08:21.393> for<00:08:22.115> part<00:08:22.340> of<00:08:22.437> your<00:08:22.581> living,<00:08:22.983> right?

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The<00:08:24.685> mistake<00:08:25.166> a<00:08:25.230> lot<00:08:25.423> of<00:08:25.487> people<00:08:25.825> make<00:08:26.660> There's<00:08:26.964> a<00:08:27.013> whole<00:08:27.109> bunch<00:08:27.269> of<00:08:27.334> mistakes<00:08:27.639> people<00:08:27.799> make,<00:08:28.040> but<00:08:28.136> the<00:08:28.232> one<00:08:28.441> that<00:08:28.762> I<00:08:28.955> notice<00:08:29.260> all<00:08:29.340> the<00:08:29.420> time<00:08:30.046> is<00:08:30.158> someone<00:08:31.025> is—<00:08:31.266> they<00:08:31.346> have<00:08:31.892> the<00:08:32.469> access,<00:08:33.015> they're<00:08:33.256> asking<00:08:33.448> you<00:08:33.577> questions,<00:08:34.476> and<00:08:34.540> they<00:08:34.636> give<00:08:34.797> you<00:08:34.941> multiple<00:08:35.423> choice<00:08:35.840> surveys.

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So,<00:08:36.883> you<00:08:36.963> know,<00:08:37.124> how<00:08:37.284> did<00:08:37.445> you<00:08:38.087> get<00:08:38.311> into<00:08:38.488> business?

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Was<00:08:39.130> it<00:08:39.210> this,<00:08:39.531> or<00:08:39.595> was<00:08:39.772> it<00:08:39.852> that,<00:08:40.093> or<00:08:40.173> was<00:08:40.350> it<00:08:40.478> this?

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And<00:08:40.799> then<00:08:40.895> they<00:08:40.976> keep<00:08:41.136> talking,<00:08:41.457> and<00:08:41.537> you<00:08:41.714> started<00:08:42.003> this<00:08:42.324> interview<00:08:42.565> by<00:08:42.661> saying,<00:08:43.223> how<00:08:43.383> did<00:08:43.528> you<00:08:43.608> get<00:08:43.768> your<00:08:43.849> start?

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Stop.

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You<00:08:45.887> know,<00:08:46.047> and<00:08:46.192> that<00:08:46.433> is<00:08:46.529> a<00:08:46.593> journalistic<00:08:47.075> technique.

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You<00:08:47.620> don't<00:08:47.797> give<00:08:48.021> me<00:08:48.182> options<00:08:48.551> because<00:08:48.696> then<00:08:48.824> you're<00:08:48.888> going<00:08:48.984> to<00:08:49.081> lead<00:08:49.241> the<00:08:49.386> way.

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You<00:08:49.642> want<00:08:49.771> to<00:08:49.803> see<00:08:50.028> where<00:08:50.124> this<00:08:50.284> goes<00:08:51.087> and<00:08:51.231> then<00:08:51.552> following<00:08:51.954> up<00:08:52.371> and<00:08:52.836> That<00:08:53.092> practice,<00:08:53.573> I<00:08:53.718> think,<00:08:53.830> is<00:08:54.038> really<00:08:54.695> good<00:08:55.016> for<00:08:55.561> business,<00:08:55.978> for<00:08:56.459> figuring<00:08:56.779> out<00:08:57.100> when<00:08:57.244> there's<00:08:57.404> problems<00:08:57.821> with<00:08:58.526> employees,<00:08:59.184> what<00:08:59.344> is<00:08:59.504> really<00:08:59.809> afoot,<00:09:00.706> letting<00:09:00.931> people<00:09:01.203> explain<00:09:01.588> themselves,<00:09:02.069> knowing<00:09:02.293> how<00:09:02.390> to<00:09:02.470> go<00:09:02.630> into<00:09:02.806> a<00:09:02.870> conversation<00:09:03.576> that's<00:09:03.736> going<00:09:03.832> to<00:09:03.912> be<00:09:04.057> hard<00:09:04.377> and<00:09:04.473> get<00:09:04.634> the<00:09:04.698> information<00:09:05.163> you<00:09:05.275> want.

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Same<00:09:06.141> thing<00:09:06.237> with<00:09:06.397> clients,<00:09:06.702> same<00:09:06.878> thing<00:09:07.038> with<00:09:07.279> investors.

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So<00:09:08.946> those<00:09:09.122> are<00:09:09.202> the<00:09:09.282> things<00:09:09.523> I<00:09:09.603> come<00:09:09.763> back<00:09:09.940> to.

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And<00:09:10.228> then<00:09:11.030> being<00:09:11.526> good<00:09:11.751> at<00:09:11.911> writing<00:09:12.953> helps<00:09:13.674> in<00:09:13.771> a<00:09:13.835> world<00:09:14.235> where<00:09:14.813> half<00:09:15.149> of<00:09:15.919> the<00:09:16.015> jobs,<00:09:16.576> half<00:09:16.832> of<00:09:16.977> the<00:09:17.121> time<00:09:17.522> in<00:09:17.602> half<00:09:17.858> of<00:09:17.890> those<00:09:18.099> jobs<00:09:18.756> is<00:09:18.820> spent<00:09:19.012> doing<00:09:19.285> email.

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Or,<00:09:20.810> you<00:09:20.843> know,<00:09:20.923> some<00:09:21.292> other<00:09:21.453> form<00:09:21.791> of<00:09:21.951> communicating<00:09:22.594> written.

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Long<00:09:24.442> answer<00:09:24.683> to<00:09:24.763> your<00:09:24.876> question,<00:09:25.165> but<00:09:25.277> no,<00:09:25.470> no,<00:09:25.583> no,<00:09:25.808> that's<00:09:26.033> what<00:09:26.129> I<00:09:26.226> noticed<00:09:26.595> too,<00:09:26.788> is<00:09:26.933> like,<00:09:27.318> I<00:09:27.559> can<00:09:27.656> write<00:09:27.897> emails<00:09:28.379> pretty<00:09:28.620> well<00:09:29.086> and<00:09:29.182> get<00:09:29.343> people<00:09:29.584> to<00:09:29.664> respond<00:09:30.066> to<00:09:30.146> them.

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I<00:09:30.387> guess<00:09:30.612> that's<00:09:30.805> a<00:09:30.853> skill,<00:09:31.496> right?

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Um,<00:09:33.039> and<00:09:33.440> so<00:09:33.762> yeah,<00:09:34.308> I<00:09:34.405> think<00:09:34.646> the<00:09:34.790> ability<00:09:35.353> to<00:09:35.594> write<00:09:35.931> is<00:09:36.156> pretty<00:09:36.493> underrated<00:09:37.377> even,<00:09:38.004> um,<00:09:38.502> today.

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Like,<00:09:39.289> it<00:09:39.482> does<00:09:39.643> seem<00:09:39.868> like<00:09:40.591> a<00:09:40.671> skill<00:09:41.009> that<00:09:41.153> may<00:09:41.314> be<00:09:41.459> going<00:09:41.716> away.

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Real<00:09:42.278> quick,<00:09:42.503> just<00:09:42.680> on<00:09:42.760> the<00:09:42.841> journalism<00:09:43.307> front<00:09:43.483> before<00:09:43.708> we<00:09:43.805> get<00:09:43.965> to<00:09:44.206> your<00:09:44.367> entrepreneurial<00:09:44.994> career.

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What<00:09:46.381> is<00:09:46.623> your,<00:09:46.945> what<00:09:47.107> are<00:09:47.139> your<00:09:47.284> thoughts<00:09:47.768> and<00:09:47.849> what<00:09:47.994> is<00:09:48.075> your<00:09:48.236> take<00:09:48.801> on<00:09:48.962> the<00:09:49.043> state<00:09:49.317> of<00:09:49.446> journalism<00:09:49.946> today?

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Hmm.

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Yeah.

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So<00:09:53.337> I,<00:09:53.739> it's<00:09:53.900> been<00:09:54.205> a<00:09:54.285> couple<00:09:54.606> years,<00:09:55.506> but<00:09:55.747> every<00:09:56.470> so<00:09:56.711> often<00:09:56.984> I'll<00:09:57.820> write<00:09:58.141> a<00:09:58.301> blog<00:09:58.559> post<00:09:59.747> that<00:09:59.908> has<00:10:00.101> some<00:10:00.711> sort<00:10:00.968> of<00:10:01.113> variation<00:10:01.611> on<00:10:01.740> the<00:10:01.837> theme<00:10:02.014> of<00:10:02.176> what<00:10:02.354> is<00:10:02.581> the<00:10:02.661> future<00:10:03.147> of<00:10:03.292> journalism.

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Uh,<00:10:04.764> because<00:10:04.990> that<00:10:05.168> was<00:10:05.395> the<00:10:05.492> big<00:10:05.637> question<00:10:05.961> when<00:10:06.042> I<00:10:06.123> went<00:10:06.204> to<00:10:06.301> journalism<00:10:06.705> school<00:10:06.948> in<00:10:06.980> '09,<00:10:08.144> uh,<00:10:08.808> that<00:10:09.050> was<00:10:09.277> on<00:10:09.438> everyone's<00:10:09.762> minds.

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It's<00:10:10.247> like,<00:10:10.668> you<00:10:10.748> know,<00:10:11.040> recession<00:10:12.132> and<00:10:12.539> digital<00:10:13.012> ads<00:10:13.354> and<00:10:13.517> this<00:10:13.762> and<00:10:13.843> that.

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And<00:10:14.153> Craigslist<00:10:14.561> has<00:10:14.610> destroyed,<00:10:14.822> you<00:10:14.854> know,<00:10:14.903> all<00:10:14.936> this<00:10:14.985> revenue<00:10:15.099> for<00:10:15.148> newspapers.

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And<00:10:18.114> every<00:10:18.343> couple<00:10:18.605> years<00:10:18.916> there's<00:10:19.030> some<00:10:19.259> new<00:10:19.521> thing<00:10:19.914> that<00:10:20.143> is<00:10:20.732> changing<00:10:21.370> media.

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And<00:10:23.999> so<00:10:24.740> I<00:10:24.805> haven't<00:10:25.047> thought<00:10:25.159> about<00:10:25.401> it<00:10:25.611> as<00:10:25.933> much<00:10:26.610> over<00:10:26.739> the<00:10:26.772> last<00:10:27.062> couple<00:10:27.336> of<00:10:27.416> years<00:10:27.626> because<00:10:27.739> I've<00:10:27.803> been<00:10:27.964> focused<00:10:28.368> more<00:10:28.771> in<00:10:28.851> the<00:10:28.916> world<00:10:29.254> of<00:10:29.980> TV<00:10:30.528> and<00:10:30.705> entertainment.

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But<00:10:33.678> I<00:10:33.824> think<00:10:34.872> there's<00:10:35.195> always<00:10:35.598> going<00:10:35.711> to<00:10:35.776> be<00:10:35.937> a<00:10:35.953> need<00:10:36.567> for<00:10:37.454> the<00:10:37.631> core<00:10:38.341> of<00:10:38.825> what<00:10:39.003> journalism<00:10:39.406> with<00:10:39.503> a<00:10:39.568> capital<00:10:39.955> J<00:10:40.213> is,<00:10:40.374> which<00:10:40.600> is<00:10:41.084> shining<00:10:41.601> light<00:10:41.972> on<00:10:42.149> things<00:10:42.375> that<00:10:42.440> people<00:10:42.678> need<00:10:42.814> to<00:10:42.916> know.

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Especially<00:10:44.287> in<00:10:44.383> a<00:10:44.447> democracy.

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I<00:10:45.232> would<00:10:45.344> say<00:10:45.504> especially<00:10:45.985> in<00:10:46.065> a<00:10:46.081> system<00:10:46.530> like<00:10:46.706> an<00:10:46.946> autocratic<00:10:47.507> system,<00:10:47.972> but<00:10:48.148> that,<00:10:48.308> you<00:10:48.388> know,<00:10:48.485> it's<00:10:48.629> harder<00:10:48.933> for<00:10:49.029> journalism<00:10:49.430> to<00:10:49.574> exist<00:10:49.831> there.

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But<00:10:50.856> if<00:10:51.273> people<00:10:51.577> are<00:10:51.753> going<00:10:51.914> to<00:10:52.058> have<00:10:52.314> power,<00:10:53.900> uh,<00:10:54.221> then<00:10:54.397> they,<00:10:54.654> they<00:10:54.798> need<00:10:54.958> to<00:10:55.054> know<00:10:55.439> what's<00:10:55.599> happening.

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And<00:10:56.320> so<00:10:56.384> I<00:10:56.560> think<00:10:56.865> holding<00:10:57.522> those<00:10:57.746> in<00:10:57.826> power<00:10:58.323> accountable<00:10:58.964> or<00:10:59.060> shining<00:10:59.364> a<00:10:59.428> light<00:10:59.669> on<00:10:59.749> what<00:10:59.861> they're<00:11:00.005> doing,<00:11:00.310> I<00:11:00.326> think<00:11:00.502> is<00:11:00.646> going<00:11:00.758> to<00:11:00.870> be<00:11:00.967> important.

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The,<00:11:03.034> the<00:11:03.130> thing<00:11:03.290> that<00:11:03.386> gets<00:11:03.610> lumped<00:11:03.915> in<00:11:04.091> with<00:11:04.251> journalism<00:11:04.668> and<00:11:04.796> has<00:11:05.197> forever,<00:11:06.238> uh,<00:11:06.639> are,<00:11:06.959> you<00:11:06.991> know,<00:11:07.376> the<00:11:07.456> sports<00:11:07.841> section<00:11:08.481> and<00:11:08.722> the<00:11:08.834> opinion<00:11:09.235> section.

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And,<00:11:10.324> you<00:11:10.356> know,<00:11:10.500> today<00:11:11.863> A<00:11:11.928> lot<00:11:12.088> of<00:11:12.168> people,<00:11:12.811> I<00:11:12.907> think,<00:11:13.148> probably<00:11:13.469> think<00:11:13.645> of<00:11:13.774> journalism<00:11:14.335> as<00:11:14.833> cable<00:11:15.234> news,<00:11:16.262> which,<00:11:16.824> you<00:11:16.856> know,<00:11:17.000> has<00:11:17.177> some<00:11:17.466> journalism<00:11:18.124> and<00:11:18.268> a<00:11:18.349> lot<00:11:18.525> of<00:11:18.621> opinion.

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And<00:11:19.649> I<00:11:19.729> don't<00:11:19.890> think<00:11:20.050> that's<00:11:20.676> healthy<00:11:21.174> for<00:11:22.057> people<00:11:22.297> being<00:11:22.522> able<00:11:22.634> to<00:11:22.699> sort,<00:11:23.405> you<00:11:23.501> know,<00:11:23.806> out<00:11:24.047> facts<00:11:24.384> that<00:11:24.464> can<00:11:24.609> help<00:11:24.721> them<00:11:24.834> make<00:11:25.010> decisions<00:11:25.508> as<00:11:25.588> citizens<00:11:26.134> and<00:11:26.214> as<00:11:26.375> neighbors<00:11:26.808> and<00:11:27.675> all<00:11:27.851> that.

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So<00:11:29.521> that<00:11:29.665> concerns<00:11:30.163> me.

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But<00:11:30.644> there<00:11:30.789> is<00:11:31.271> great<00:11:31.624> stuff<00:11:32.715> being<00:11:32.972> done.

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I'd<00:11:33.678> say<00:11:34.497> primarily—<00:11:36.487> this<00:11:36.648> is<00:11:36.728> just<00:11:36.889> my<00:11:37.065> armchair<00:11:37.386> analysis—<00:11:37.868> primarily<00:11:39.956> traditional<00:11:40.502> newspapers<00:11:41.000> that<00:11:41.096> are<00:11:41.225> investing<00:11:41.883> or<00:11:41.980> subsidizing<00:11:43.795> journalism<00:11:44.213> that's<00:11:44.390> important.

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And<00:11:45.980> they'll<00:11:46.141> subsidize<00:11:46.542> that<00:11:46.703> through<00:11:46.864> the<00:11:47.024> ads<00:11:47.249> on<00:11:47.281> the<00:11:47.345> sports<00:11:47.667> section<00:11:47.924> and<00:11:48.133> all<00:11:48.229> of<00:11:48.309> that.

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There's<00:11:49.113> some<00:11:49.273> great,<00:11:49.675> you<00:11:49.755> know,<00:11:50.398> New<00:11:50.462> York<00:11:50.639> Times<00:11:50.960> and<00:11:51.024> Washington<00:11:51.362> Post<00:11:51.587> are<00:11:51.619> always<00:11:51.763> doing<00:11:51.988> great<00:11:52.229> work.

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Local,<00:11:53.113> you<00:11:53.611> know,<00:11:54.253> newspapers<00:11:54.816> in<00:11:54.896> big<00:11:55.073> cities<00:11:55.314> are<00:11:55.362> always<00:11:55.539> doing<00:11:55.699> great<00:11:55.860> work.

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But<00:11:57.145> the<00:11:57.226> second<00:11:57.707> category<00:11:58.125> that<00:11:58.270> I'm<00:11:58.366> seeing<00:11:58.575> a<00:11:58.591> lot<00:11:59.218> of<00:11:59.330> stuff<00:12:00.021> is<00:12:00.663> like<00:12:00.840> the,<00:12:01.242> this<00:12:01.402> sort<00:12:01.724> of<00:12:01.756> Substack<00:12:03.170> generation<00:12:03.716> of<00:12:04.117> individuals<00:12:04.680> who<00:12:04.712> are<00:12:04.776> subject<00:12:05.178> matter<00:12:05.499> experts.

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Many<00:12:07.505> of<00:12:07.650> them<00:12:09.174> are<00:12:09.334> drilling<00:12:09.735> into<00:12:10.216> topics<00:12:10.954> and<00:12:11.099> reporting<00:12:11.500> like<00:12:11.741> journalists<00:12:13.040> in<00:12:13.184> ways<00:12:13.425> that<00:12:13.505> I<00:12:13.601> think<00:12:13.906> is<00:12:14.388> very,<00:12:14.644> very<00:12:14.885> valuable.

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And<00:12:15.446> the<00:12:15.591> fact<00:12:15.767> that<00:12:15.912> they<00:12:16.008> can<00:12:16.249> get<00:12:16.409> paid<00:12:16.810> to<00:12:16.970> support<00:12:17.372> that<00:12:17.532> work<00:12:18.029> is<00:12:18.110> great.

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Plenty<00:12:18.815> of<00:12:18.847> Substacks<00:12:19.361> are,<00:12:19.682> you<00:12:19.762> know,<00:12:19.938> entertainment,<00:12:20.500> and<00:12:20.564> that's<00:12:20.805> awesome.

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That's<00:12:21.302> great.

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Plenty<00:12:21.944> of<00:12:22.024> them<00:12:22.184> are<00:12:22.345> opining<00:12:22.890> on<00:12:23.051> whatever<00:12:23.307> politics,<00:12:24.350> but<00:12:24.495> there<00:12:24.591> are<00:12:24.671> folks<00:12:24.912> that<00:12:25.008> are,<00:12:25.297> you<00:12:25.377> know,<00:12:25.489> investigating<00:12:27.222> really<00:12:27.398> important<00:12:27.783> things<00:12:28.120> or<00:12:28.200> just<00:12:28.361> covering<00:12:29.388> the<00:12:29.420> news<00:12:30.190> in,<00:12:30.751> you<00:12:30.783> know,<00:12:31.249> in<00:12:31.409> industries<00:12:32.051> that<00:12:32.227> I<00:12:32.372> think<00:12:32.548> is<00:12:32.773> very<00:12:33.077> valuable.

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And<00:12:33.719> the<00:12:33.815> fact<00:12:34.056> that<00:12:34.136> they<00:12:34.216> can<00:12:34.377> support<00:12:34.682> themselves<00:12:35.099> through<00:12:35.259> donations<00:12:36.158> or<00:12:36.286> through<00:12:36.446> subscriptions<00:12:37.120> rather,<00:12:37.906> I<00:12:37.986> think<00:12:38.612> is<00:12:38.772> a<00:12:38.869> big<00:12:39.109> deal.

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I'd<00:12:39.751> say,<00:12:40.473> and<00:12:40.617> I<00:12:41.098> own<00:12:41.211> some<00:12:41.419> shares<00:12:41.676> in<00:12:41.772> Substack,<00:12:42.253> so<00:12:42.478> I,<00:12:42.783> you<00:12:42.815> know,<00:12:43.120> maybe<00:12:43.360> there's<00:12:43.585> a<00:12:43.665> bias<00:12:43.986> here,<00:12:44.162> but<00:12:44.307> I'd<00:12:44.419> say<00:12:44.563> Substack,<00:12:45.847> you<00:12:45.943> know,<00:12:46.087> years<00:12:46.312> from<00:12:46.488> now,<00:12:47.194> the<00:12:47.355> thing<00:12:47.451> that<00:12:47.691> it<00:12:47.772> started,<00:12:48.173> whether<00:12:48.349> Substack<00:12:48.895> is<00:12:49.360> still<00:12:49.536> around,<00:12:50.659> will<00:12:50.980> probably<00:12:51.381> be<00:12:51.541> seen,<00:12:52.023> be<00:12:52.103> taught<00:12:52.424> in<00:12:52.504> journalism<00:12:53.001> schools<00:12:53.611> as<00:12:54.012> a<00:12:54.188> thing<00:12:54.349> that<00:12:54.493> helped<00:12:54.686> sustain<00:12:55.472> kind<00:12:55.969> of<00:12:56.113> important<00:12:56.819> reporting,<00:12:57.541> you<00:12:57.653> know,<00:12:57.798> in<00:12:57.878> this<00:12:58.038> crazy<00:12:58.439> media<00:12:58.616> landscape.

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Yeah.

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And<00:13:00.188> kind<00:13:00.364> of<00:13:00.445> like<00:13:00.621> empower<00:13:01.327> independent<00:13:02.049> journalism.

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And<00:13:04.696> the<00:13:04.840> ability<00:13:05.321> to<00:13:05.433> kind<00:13:05.722> of<00:13:05.802> give<00:13:06.043> the<00:13:06.139> power<00:13:06.701> to<00:13:06.941> the<00:13:07.086> journalist,<00:13:07.888> right,<00:13:08.369> in<00:13:08.529> terms<00:13:08.866> of<00:13:08.947> what<00:13:09.107> they<00:13:09.348> want<00:13:09.492> to<00:13:09.588> cover.

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And<00:13:10.134> as<00:13:10.294> long<00:13:10.567> as,<00:13:10.855> you<00:13:10.888> know,<00:13:11.032> their<00:13:11.192> subscribers<00:13:11.818> like<00:13:12.075> it,<00:13:12.219> they<00:13:12.315> get<00:13:12.395> to<00:13:12.476> keep<00:13:12.716> doing<00:13:12.957> it.

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It's<00:13:13.278> pretty,<00:13:13.534> it's<00:13:13.679> pretty<00:13:13.919> beautiful.

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Yeah.

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I'll<00:13:15.668> also<00:13:15.909> say,<00:13:16.165> you<00:13:16.229> know,<00:13:16.326> podcasts<00:13:16.887> are<00:13:16.951> another<00:13:17.128> example<00:13:17.449> of<00:13:17.529> that.

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Podcasters<00:13:18.491> being<00:13:18.652> able<00:13:18.892> to<00:13:19.694> drill<00:13:19.919> into<00:13:20.095> topics<00:13:20.817> is,<00:13:21.379> you<00:13:21.860> know,<00:13:22.101> again,<00:13:22.421> there's<00:13:22.518> a<00:13:22.582> lot<00:13:22.726> of<00:13:22.822> entertainment,<00:13:23.368> there's<00:13:23.528> a<00:13:23.544> lot<00:13:23.721> of<00:13:24.170> like<00:13:24.507> education<00:13:25.132> information.

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And<00:13:26.672> but<00:13:26.849> there<00:13:27.314> are<00:13:27.394> folks<00:13:27.619> that<00:13:27.731> are<00:13:27.795> drilling<00:13:28.116> into,<00:13:28.918> you<00:13:28.998> know,<00:13:29.159> what<00:13:29.720> would<00:13:29.881> be<00:13:30.683> done<00:13:30.924> by<00:13:31.085> a<00:13:31.229> regular<00:13:31.647> journalist.

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I<00:13:32.289> think<00:13:32.433> that's—<00:13:32.851> yeah,<00:13:33.156> that's<00:13:33.333> another<00:13:33.477> example<00:13:33.798> of<00:13:33.895> that.

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Yeah.

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Isn't<00:13:34.858> it<00:13:34.922> remarkable<00:13:35.500> that<00:13:35.821> there<00:13:35.982> are,<00:13:36.528> there<00:13:36.705> are<00:13:36.753> a<00:13:36.865> number<00:13:37.267> of<00:13:37.411> podcasts<00:13:37.973> that<00:13:38.134> just<00:13:38.374> get<00:13:38.487> so<00:13:38.888> many<00:13:39.049> more<00:13:39.354> views<00:13:39.916> and<00:13:40.076> listens<00:13:40.494> and<00:13:40.638> watches<00:13:41.281> than<00:13:41.441> like<00:13:41.746> anything<00:13:42.228> on<00:13:42.405> cable<00:13:42.726> news?

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Like<00:13:44.556> not<00:13:44.733> even<00:13:44.958> close.

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Yeah.

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It's<00:13:46.660> cool.

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It's,<00:13:47.061> it's<00:13:47.222> fascinating.

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It's<00:13:48.908> pretty<00:13:49.148> wild.

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So<00:13:50.192> how<00:13:50.353> did<00:13:50.497> you<00:13:50.594> go<00:13:50.834> from,<00:13:51.461> uh,<00:13:52.103> from<00:13:52.424> journalism<00:13:54.030> to<00:13:54.206> being<00:13:54.447> an<00:13:54.527> entrepreneur?

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So<00:13:57.562> the<00:13:57.658> real<00:13:57.834> story<00:13:58.284> is<00:13:58.380> that<00:13:58.525> I<00:13:58.605> was<00:13:58.701> an<00:13:58.765> entrepreneur<00:13:59.343> before<00:13:59.664> I<00:14:00.387> got<00:14:00.627> into<00:14:00.852> journalism.

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I<00:14:01.430> put<00:14:01.590> myself<00:14:01.928> through<00:14:02.072> school<00:14:03.115> building<00:14:03.356> websites<00:14:03.838> for<00:14:03.998> people<00:14:04.785> and<00:14:05.619> selling<00:14:05.989> stuff<00:14:06.262> in<00:14:06.390> e-commerce<00:14:07.289> and<00:14:07.770> kind<00:14:08.220> of<00:14:08.284> various<00:14:08.653> other<00:14:09.440> things<00:14:09.761> that<00:14:09.921> like<00:14:10.178> now<00:14:10.579> as<00:14:10.820> a<00:14:10.884> proper<00:14:11.286> adult,<00:14:11.623> I<00:14:12.104> could<00:14:12.249> only<00:14:12.425> be<00:14:12.570> described<00:14:13.067> as<00:14:13.164> schemes.

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But,<00:14:14.576> you<00:14:14.608> know,<00:14:14.929> figuring<00:14:15.459> out<00:14:15.620> how<00:14:15.716> to,<00:14:16.037> how<00:14:16.198> to<00:14:16.358> make<00:14:16.663> money<00:14:17.000> as<00:14:17.305> a<00:14:17.562> teenager.

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And<00:14:18.268> then,<00:14:18.525> you<00:14:18.621> know,<00:14:18.782> in<00:14:18.926> college<00:14:20.355> I<00:14:20.371> sold<00:14:20.692> stickers<00:14:21.495> for<00:14:21.816> like<00:14:22.056> UFOs,<00:14:22.682> like<00:14:22.923> my<00:14:23.164> roommate<00:14:23.982> saw<00:14:24.143> a<00:14:24.383> UFO,<00:14:25.746> we<00:14:25.987> thought<00:14:26.147> it<00:14:26.211> was<00:14:26.372> hilarious,<00:14:27.029> and<00:14:27.334> I<00:14:27.574> made<00:14:27.815> UFO<00:14:28.152> stickers<00:14:28.617> and<00:14:28.713> sold<00:14:29.018> them.

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You<00:14:29.194> know,<00:14:29.419> things<00:14:29.659> like<00:14:29.819> that<00:14:30.637> were<00:14:30.798> always<00:14:31.038> sort<00:14:31.134> of<00:14:31.263> part<00:14:31.439> of<00:14:31.519> how<00:14:31.680> I<00:14:31.760> made<00:14:32.080> ends<00:14:32.385> meet.

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You<00:14:33.684> know,<00:14:33.844> my<00:14:33.989> family<00:14:34.807> was<00:14:34.983> a<00:14:35.047> big<00:14:35.208> family,<00:14:36.314> and<00:14:36.971> so<00:14:37.196> my<00:14:37.292> parents<00:14:37.533> couldn't<00:14:37.773> pay<00:14:37.934> for<00:14:38.575> my<00:14:38.671> school<00:14:38.976> and<00:14:39.056> my<00:14:39.217> housing,<00:14:39.537> so<00:14:40.002> I<00:14:40.179> had<00:14:40.339> to,<00:14:40.804> you<00:14:40.836> know,<00:14:41.061> do<00:14:41.157> something.

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So<00:14:43.370> there<00:14:43.530> was<00:14:43.707> that.

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And<00:14:44.091> then<00:14:44.172> when<00:14:44.284> I<00:14:44.412> went<00:14:44.829> into<00:14:45.455> journalism,<00:14:46.417> I<00:14:46.914> was<00:14:47.058> reporting.

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I<00:14:48.052> mean,<00:14:48.357> my<00:14:48.533> first<00:14:49.079> jobs<00:14:49.560> were<00:14:49.784> at,<00:14:50.041> you<00:14:50.121> know,<00:14:50.330> Mashable<00:14:50.911> covering<00:14:51.233> tech<00:14:51.411> startups,<00:14:51.895> and<00:14:51.976> then<00:14:52.137> Fast<00:14:52.379> Company<00:14:52.944> and<00:14:53.106> Wired<00:14:53.509> covering<00:14:53.913> businesses<00:14:54.881> that<00:14:54.978> are<00:14:55.124> doing<00:14:55.430> entrepreneurial<00:14:56.011> things.

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And<00:14:57.851> so<00:14:58.578> the<00:14:58.659> transition<00:14:59.240> back<00:14:59.450> to<00:14:59.953> entrepreneurship<00:15:00.538> was<00:15:00.701> pretty<00:15:01.010> easy<00:15:01.075> because<00:15:01.367> it's<00:15:01.579> like,<00:15:01.757> this<00:15:01.985> is<00:15:02.082> sort<00:15:02.229> of<00:15:02.408> in<00:15:02.489> my<00:15:03.220> DNA,<00:15:03.692> building<00:15:04.114> things<00:15:04.585> and,<00:15:04.829> you<00:15:04.943> know,<00:15:05.317> paving<00:15:05.593> my<00:15:05.739> own<00:15:05.967> way.

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And<00:15:08.550> I<00:15:09.034> really—<00:15:09.293> what<00:15:09.454> happened<00:15:09.922> is<00:15:10.083> I<00:15:10.099> was<00:15:10.261> in<00:15:10.341> New<00:15:10.487> York,<00:15:10.745> I<00:15:10.809> was<00:15:10.971> covering<00:15:12.020> this<00:15:12.116> sort<00:15:12.278> of<00:15:12.455> tech<00:15:12.826> boom<00:15:13.085> that<00:15:13.165> was<00:15:13.310> happening<00:15:13.811> in<00:15:13.988> New<00:15:14.117> York<00:15:14.311> City<00:15:14.618> in,<00:15:14.924> you<00:15:14.956> know,<00:15:15.053> '09,<00:15:15.666> 2010.

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And,<00:15:17.257> uh,<00:15:18.220> and<00:15:18.300> I<00:15:18.461> was<00:15:18.637> hanging<00:15:18.942> out<00:15:19.038> with<00:15:19.359> the<00:15:19.504> founders<00:15:19.825> of<00:15:19.985> Foursquare<00:15:20.643> and<00:15:20.804> Tumblr<00:15:21.445> and<00:15:21.686> BuzzFeed<00:15:22.264> and<00:15:22.344> some<00:15:22.424> of<00:15:22.489> these<00:15:22.649> companies<00:15:23.050> that<00:15:23.211> ended<00:15:23.387> up<00:15:23.917> becoming<00:15:24.334> very<00:15:24.575> big<00:15:24.799> very<00:15:24.912> quickly.

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And,<00:15:26.388> you<00:15:26.420> know,<00:15:26.677> I<00:15:26.741> was<00:15:26.902> writing<00:15:27.223> about<00:15:27.528> them<00:15:27.784> and<00:15:28.025> learning<00:15:28.282> about<00:15:28.490> how<00:15:28.587> they<00:15:28.747> did<00:15:28.972> it<00:15:29.068> and,<00:15:29.389> um,<00:15:29.871> and<00:15:30.191> sort<00:15:30.416> of<00:15:30.448> was<00:15:30.593> inspired,<00:15:31.058> like,<00:15:31.219> I<00:15:31.299> want<00:15:31.379> to<00:15:31.475> do<00:15:31.556> this<00:15:31.796> too.

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And<00:15:33.385> the—<00:15:34.749> I'd<00:15:34.845> always<00:15:35.070> had<00:15:35.263> a<00:15:35.391> few<00:15:35.567> side<00:15:35.808> projects<00:15:36.209> going<00:15:36.450> on,<00:15:36.691> but<00:15:36.835> the<00:15:36.996> one<00:15:37.172> that<00:15:37.333> became<00:15:37.814> a<00:15:38.055> company<00:15:38.456> that<00:15:39.002> sort<00:15:39.162> of<00:15:39.724> took<00:15:39.916> my<00:15:40.061> full-time<00:15:40.478> attention<00:15:41.409> was<00:15:41.650> in<00:15:41.746> the<00:15:41.842> media<00:15:42.147> space.

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It<00:15:42.628> was<00:15:42.789> brokering<00:15:43.976> work<00:15:44.297> for<00:15:45.034> freelance<00:15:45.435> journalists<00:15:46.140> who<00:15:46.220> were<00:15:46.317> being<00:15:46.477> laid<00:15:46.701> off<00:15:46.797> from<00:15:46.974> newspapers<00:15:47.583> and<00:15:47.663> everywhere<00:15:47.984> else,<00:15:48.641> helping<00:15:49.042> them<00:15:49.282> get<00:15:49.683> gigs<00:15:50.308> like<00:15:50.468> a<00:15:50.805> talent<00:15:51.110> marketplace,<00:15:51.623> like<00:15:51.831> an<00:15:52.087> Upwork<00:15:52.552> now,<00:15:53.129> um,<00:15:53.450> or<00:15:53.610> a<00:15:53.626> Fiverr.

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But,<00:15:55.117> um,<00:15:55.614> and<00:15:55.694> then<00:15:55.854> that<00:15:56.079> turned<00:15:56.399> into<00:15:57.762> clients,<00:15:58.644> uh,<00:15:59.061> that<00:15:59.221> we<00:15:59.365> got<00:15:59.622> initially<00:16:00.006> that<00:16:00.086> were<00:16:00.183> paying<00:16:00.583> good<00:16:00.888> rates<00:16:01.209> for<00:16:01.385> professional,<00:16:02.411> uh,<00:16:02.587> reporters<00:16:03.629> and<00:16:03.773> editors<00:16:04.270> were<00:16:04.575> largely<00:16:04.992> brands<00:16:05.473> that<00:16:05.553> were<00:16:05.617> starting<00:16:05.937> to<00:16:06.034> do<00:16:06.739> blogs<00:16:07.076> and<00:16:07.156> social<00:16:07.444> media<00:16:07.701> and<00:16:07.877> content<00:16:08.150> marketing.

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And<00:16:09.159> so<00:16:09.256> then<00:16:09.400> we<00:16:09.544> built<00:16:09.737> a<00:16:09.801> software<00:16:10.121> company<00:16:10.442> around,<00:16:10.763> you<00:16:11.019> know,<00:16:11.147> managing<00:16:11.484> content<00:16:11.804> marketing<00:16:12.526> and<00:16:12.702> it's,<00:16:12.862> it's<00:16:13.167> doing<00:16:13.327> quite<00:16:13.504> well.

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I'm<00:16:13.872> actually<00:16:14.129> in<00:16:14.209> the<00:16:14.369> office,<00:16:14.770> the<00:16:14.914> Contently<00:16:15.411> office<00:16:15.540> office<00:16:15.652> right<00:16:15.796> now.

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I'm<00:16:16.759> still<00:16:16.999> on<00:16:17.080> the<00:16:17.176> board,<00:16:17.657> but,<00:16:17.818> uh,<00:16:18.042> whenever<00:16:18.283> I'm<00:16:18.716> in<00:16:18.780> New<00:16:18.861> York<00:16:19.085> City,<00:16:19.583> I<00:16:19.663> work<00:16:19.887> out<00:16:19.984> of<00:16:20.048> here.

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And,<00:16:21.091> uh,<00:16:21.363> so<00:16:21.829> it<00:16:21.973> was,<00:16:22.454> uh,<00:16:23.273> you<00:16:23.337> know,<00:16:23.513> you<00:16:23.577> can<00:16:23.674> see<00:16:23.834> like<00:16:24.075> I<00:16:24.155> was<00:16:24.299> a<00:16:24.316> journalist,<00:16:24.797> I<00:16:24.813> had<00:16:24.957> started<00:16:25.294> a<00:16:25.342> company<00:16:25.615> to<00:16:25.679> help<00:16:25.840> journalists,<00:16:26.401> and<00:16:26.481> then<00:16:26.626> it<00:16:26.706> turned<00:16:26.947> into<00:16:27.123> something,<00:16:27.909> you<00:16:27.941> know,<00:16:28.150> bigger.

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And<00:16:29.289> we<00:16:29.369> raised<00:16:29.690> money<00:16:30.075> and<00:16:30.557> learned<00:16:30.797> all<00:16:30.894> of<00:16:31.038> the<00:16:31.134> tech<00:16:31.439> stuff<00:16:31.936> firsthand<00:16:32.562> that<00:16:32.658> I'd<00:16:32.819> been<00:16:33.043> writing<00:16:33.380> about.

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Um,<00:16:34.824> and<00:16:34.904> then<00:16:35.771> at<00:16:35.867> a<00:16:35.883> certain<00:16:36.172> point<00:16:36.493> when<00:16:37.215> I<00:16:37.375> had<00:16:37.712> run<00:16:37.953> my<00:16:38.113> course<00:16:38.579> as,<00:16:38.899> uh,<00:16:39.300> you<00:16:39.333> know,<00:16:39.413> I<00:16:39.445> was<00:16:39.621> kind<00:16:39.718> of<00:16:39.862> active<00:16:40.183> founder<00:16:40.680> here.

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I<00:16:41.471> decided<00:16:41.764> to<00:16:41.813> go<00:16:41.960> back<00:16:42.155> to<00:16:42.302> writing,<00:16:42.872> writing<00:16:43.116> about<00:16:43.214> some<00:16:43.360> of<00:16:43.393> the<00:16:43.507> things<00:16:43.686> I'd<00:16:43.832> learned,<00:16:44.337> you<00:16:44.435> know,<00:16:45.053> investigating<00:16:45.640> things<00:16:45.884> that<00:16:45.949> I<00:16:46.047> wanted<00:16:46.291> to<00:16:46.372> learn,<00:16:47.347> and<00:16:47.525> then<00:16:47.688> inevitably<00:16:48.239> got<00:16:48.418> pulled<00:16:48.580> back<00:16:48.759> into<00:16:49.213> doing<00:16:49.391> another<00:16:49.619> company<00:16:49.878> again.

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And<00:16:50.284> so<00:16:50.592> yeah,<00:16:50.771> the<00:16:50.868> pattern,<00:16:51.566> the<00:16:51.663> pattern<00:16:51.988> repeats<00:16:52.393> itself.

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Yeah.

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What<00:16:54.129> did<00:16:54.259> you<00:16:54.422> learn<00:16:54.600> about<00:16:54.989> being<00:16:55.217> a<00:16:55.379> leader<00:16:56.107> and,<00:16:56.589> uh,<00:16:56.846> building<00:16:57.247> teams<00:16:57.954> as<00:16:58.211> you<00:16:58.356> built<00:16:58.533> this<00:16:58.693> company?

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Yeah,<00:17:01.168> I,<00:17:02.148> well,<00:17:02.292> this<00:17:02.453> was<00:17:02.549> one<00:17:02.694> of<00:17:02.774> the<00:17:02.871> things<00:17:03.096> that<00:17:03.256> I,<00:17:03.578> you<00:17:03.610> know,<00:17:03.819> as<00:17:03.995> I<00:17:04.060> was<00:17:04.172> coming<00:17:04.461> out<00:17:04.542> of<00:17:04.622> the<00:17:04.702> company,<00:17:05.120> or<00:17:05.281> I<00:17:05.361> guess<00:17:05.522> a<00:17:05.588> year<00:17:05.833> after<00:17:06.439> I<00:17:06.570> published<00:17:06.931> a<00:17:06.996> book<00:17:07.242> about<00:17:07.880> teamwork.

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Called<00:17:08.668> Dream<00:17:08.892> Teams<00:17:09.453> that<00:17:10.720> was<00:17:11.201> inspired<00:17:12.018> by<00:17:12.563> my<00:17:13.204> having<00:17:13.461> that<00:17:13.621> question,<00:17:14.022> like,<00:17:14.263> what<00:17:14.375> do<00:17:14.567> I<00:17:14.599> need<00:17:14.743> to<00:17:14.968> learn<00:17:15.160> about<00:17:15.465> leadership<00:17:15.866> and<00:17:16.010> teamwork?

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As,<00:17:17.356> you<00:17:17.388> know,<00:17:17.533> as<00:17:17.709> I<00:17:17.853> go<00:17:18.094> from<00:17:18.382> kind<00:17:19.232> of<00:17:19.312> this<00:17:19.553> builder<00:17:19.937> entrepreneur<00:17:20.434> type<00:17:20.755> who's<00:17:20.899> used<00:17:21.059> to<00:17:21.316> being<00:17:21.540> hands-on<00:17:22.358> to<00:17:22.582> having<00:17:22.807> 100<00:17:23.095> employees,<00:17:23.865> and<00:17:23.961> like,<00:17:24.121> my<00:17:24.282> job<00:17:24.506> is<00:17:24.602> to<00:17:24.650> help<00:17:24.923> them<00:17:25.163> be<00:17:25.388> hands-on,<00:17:25.949> help<00:17:26.125> them<00:17:26.365> build<00:17:26.606> things.

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And<00:17:28.049> yeah,<00:17:28.225> so<00:17:28.385> a<00:17:28.514> few<00:17:28.674> years<00:17:28.994> in,<00:17:29.235> you<00:17:29.668> know,<00:17:29.892> I<00:17:30.036> had<00:17:30.213> this<00:17:30.373> anxiety<00:17:30.838> around<00:17:31.094> this,<00:17:31.399> and<00:17:32.136> I<00:17:32.217> started<00:17:32.617> writing<00:17:33.884> articles<00:17:34.381> for<00:17:34.958> my<00:17:35.343> LinkedIn<00:17:35.968> newsletter,<00:17:37.346> you<00:17:37.443> know,<00:17:37.507> or<00:17:37.892> the<00:17:38.052> LinkedIn<00:17:38.308> article<00:17:38.853> thing<00:17:39.815> about<00:17:41.018> leaders<00:17:41.595> and<00:17:41.755> teamwork<00:17:42.557> and<00:17:42.637> different<00:17:42.941> facets<00:17:43.583> of,<00:17:44.064> you<00:17:44.096> know,<00:17:44.865> debate<00:17:45.763> and<00:17:46.148> diversity<00:17:47.029> and<00:17:47.206> these<00:17:47.430> things<00:17:47.687> that<00:17:47.847> I<00:17:48.088> wanted<00:17:48.392> to<00:17:48.649> understand<00:17:49.146> and<00:17:49.210> get<00:17:49.434> right.

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And<00:17:50.332> eventually,<00:17:51.198> you<00:17:51.631> know,<00:17:51.759> I<00:17:51.855> was<00:17:51.999> helping<00:17:52.240> myself<00:17:52.576> learn<00:17:53.378> how<00:17:53.458> to<00:17:53.554> be<00:17:53.683> a<00:17:53.699> better<00:17:53.955> leader<00:17:55.045> and<00:17:55.462> telling<00:17:55.719> some<00:17:55.783> of<00:17:55.847> the<00:17:55.943> stories<00:17:56.183> that<00:17:56.328> I<00:17:56.504> was<00:17:56.729> experiencing<00:17:57.370> as<00:17:57.530> a<00:17:57.610> leader,<00:17:57.947> you<00:17:58.027> know,<00:17:58.187> in<00:17:58.268> this<00:17:58.428> sort<00:17:58.588> of<00:17:58.732> blogging<00:17:59.133> effort.

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And,<00:18:00.255> you<00:18:00.288> know,<00:18:00.448> 100<00:18:00.833> posts<00:18:01.153> later,<00:18:02.019> I<00:18:02.740> had<00:18:02.933> some<00:18:03.462> working<00:18:03.863> theories<00:18:04.424> that<00:18:04.840> were<00:18:05.963> that<00:18:06.107> I<00:18:06.204> wanted<00:18:06.444> to—<00:18:06.845> I<00:18:07.086> took<00:18:07.262> a<00:18:07.327> sabbatical.

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I<00:18:07.888> took<00:18:08.065> several<00:18:08.369> months<00:18:08.674> off<00:18:09.011> and<00:18:09.332> kind<00:18:09.476> of<00:18:09.556> traveled<00:18:09.893> the<00:18:10.038> world<00:18:10.535> and<00:18:10.679> met<00:18:10.856> people<00:18:11.096> and<00:18:11.257> interviewed<00:18:11.578> people<00:18:11.979> and<00:18:12.620> did<00:18:12.781> original<00:18:13.246> research<00:18:13.727> and<00:18:13.904> kind<00:18:14.385> of<00:18:14.529> whittled<00:18:14.802> it<00:18:14.930> down<00:18:15.187> into<00:18:15.749> a<00:18:15.813> thesis<00:18:16.310> that<00:18:16.454> became<00:18:16.775> this<00:18:17.016> book,<00:18:17.272> which<00:18:18.155> basically<00:18:18.796> the<00:18:18.941> core<00:18:19.117> thesis<00:18:19.518> is<00:18:19.679> that<00:18:20.545> most<00:18:20.786> teams<00:18:21.668> are—<00:18:22.390> they<00:18:22.486> get<00:18:22.646> less<00:18:22.823> efficient<00:18:23.673> as<00:18:23.994> they<00:18:24.090> get<00:18:24.331> bigger.

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And,<00:18:25.438> you<00:18:25.470> know,<00:18:25.855> it's<00:18:25.999> harder<00:18:26.256> to<00:18:26.320> make<00:18:26.737> great<00:18:27.780> innovative<00:18:28.181> decisions<00:18:28.983> the<00:18:29.143> longer<00:18:29.625> the<00:18:29.769> team<00:18:29.962> stays<00:18:30.250> the<00:18:30.347> same<00:18:30.732> or<00:18:30.828> the<00:18:30.908> more<00:18:31.068> alike<00:18:31.389> you<00:18:31.614> are.

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And<00:18:32.336> that<00:18:32.496> happens.

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Just<00:18:33.250> a<00:18:33.378> group<00:18:33.555> of<00:18:33.619> people<00:18:33.876> become<00:18:34.197> more<00:18:34.341> alike<00:18:34.614> over<00:18:34.758> time<00:18:35.015> in<00:18:35.143> their<00:18:35.223> perspectives.

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But<00:18:37.467> the<00:18:37.548> formula<00:18:38.044> for<00:18:38.268> a<00:18:38.349> team<00:18:38.685> that<00:18:39.246> keeps<00:18:39.566> getting<00:18:39.871> better<00:18:40.127> and<00:18:40.271> keeps<00:18:40.512> climbing<00:18:40.848> and<00:18:41.008> keeps<00:18:41.249> making<00:18:41.489> breakthroughs<00:18:42.594> is<00:18:42.675> a<00:18:42.755> team<00:18:42.915> that<00:18:43.011> thinks<00:18:43.251> differently<00:18:43.972> and<00:18:44.052> injects<00:18:44.469> new<00:18:44.613> thinking<00:18:45.174> into<00:18:45.735> it<00:18:46.456> frequently.

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A<00:18:47.577> team<00:18:47.721> that's<00:18:47.962> willing<00:18:48.218> to<00:18:48.458> lean<00:18:48.699> into<00:18:49.981> what<00:18:50.381> I<00:18:50.525> call<00:18:50.702> cognitive<00:18:51.262> friction.

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So<00:18:51.967> leaning<00:18:52.288> into<00:18:52.768> the<00:18:54.050> tension<00:18:54.467> between<00:18:54.851> different<00:18:55.140> viewpoints<00:18:55.588> and<00:18:55.700> different<00:18:55.909> ideas<00:18:56.309> and<00:18:56.373> actually<00:18:56.550> considering<00:18:57.190> things<00:18:57.495> that<00:18:57.591> don't<00:18:57.831> sound<00:18:58.072> right<00:18:58.328> or<00:18:58.456> that<00:18:58.616> sound<00:18:58.793> crazy<00:18:59.930> so<00:19:00.074> that<00:19:00.235> you<00:19:00.315> can<00:19:00.475> learn<00:19:00.699> from<00:19:00.876> them.

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And<00:19:01.516> then<00:19:01.661> the<00:19:01.821> third<00:19:02.061> is<00:19:02.317> this<00:19:02.782> concept<00:19:03.263> of<00:19:03.599> intellectual<00:19:04.144> humility,<00:19:04.625> which<00:19:04.801> is<00:19:05.586> All<00:19:05.698> of<00:19:05.762> that's<00:19:06.002> good,<00:19:06.323> but<00:19:06.483> if<00:19:07.348> the<00:19:07.444> boss<00:19:07.781> is<00:19:07.925> never<00:19:08.149> willing<00:19:08.326> to<00:19:08.470> change<00:19:08.710> their<00:19:08.806> mind<00:19:09.191> or<00:19:09.223> if<00:19:09.287> the<00:19:09.447> team<00:19:09.751> is<00:19:09.848> never<00:19:10.072> willing<00:19:10.328> to<00:19:10.488> back<00:19:10.793> down,<00:19:11.610> then<00:19:11.930> none<00:19:12.106> of<00:19:12.235> it's<00:19:12.635> any<00:19:12.811> good.

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You<00:19:13.196> just<00:19:13.677> have<00:19:13.917> debates<00:19:14.333> and<00:19:14.397> you<00:19:14.494> have<00:19:14.750> different<00:19:15.118> ways<00:19:15.295> of<00:19:15.375> thinking<00:19:15.759> and<00:19:16.160> the<00:19:16.240> person<00:19:16.496> in<00:19:16.576> power<00:19:16.817> gets<00:19:17.041> their<00:19:17.137> way.

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So,<00:19:18.018> that<00:19:18.178> was<00:19:18.323> the<00:19:18.403> core<00:19:18.579> thesis.

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And<00:19:19.028> then,<00:19:19.124> I<00:19:19.204> explored<00:19:19.604> facets<00:19:19.957> of<00:19:20.085> that<00:19:20.325> through<00:19:20.421> history<00:19:20.982> and<00:19:21.062> in<00:19:21.222> dynamics<00:19:21.703> from<00:19:22.424> police<00:19:22.744> partnerships<00:19:23.690> all<00:19:23.722> the<00:19:23.850> way<00:19:23.946> up<00:19:24.106> to<00:19:24.330> big<00:19:24.443> social<00:19:24.811> movements<00:19:25.388> and<00:19:26.189> in<00:19:26.269> between<00:19:26.573> our<00:19:26.734> companies<00:19:27.230> and<00:19:27.935> hockey<00:19:28.191> teams<00:19:29.217> and<00:19:29.377> all<00:19:29.553> that.

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So,<00:19:30.418> learned<00:19:30.659> a<00:19:30.675> lot.

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But<00:19:31.075> those<00:19:31.316> are<00:19:32.037> the<00:19:32.117> question—<00:19:32.597> again,<00:19:32.918> rambling.

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But<00:19:33.879> the<00:19:33.959> question<00:19:34.263> you<00:19:34.360> asked<00:19:34.536> is<00:19:34.664> what<00:19:34.760> did<00:19:34.920> I<00:19:35.000> learn<00:19:35.161> about<00:19:35.385> teamwork?

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I<00:19:36.299> learned<00:19:36.459> that<00:19:36.604> the<00:19:36.764> best<00:19:37.005> teams<00:19:37.807> are<00:19:37.951> seeking<00:19:38.673> different<00:19:39.010> ways<00:19:39.251> of<00:19:39.475> thinking<00:19:40.117> and<00:19:40.213> then<00:19:40.534> leaning<00:19:40.919> in<00:19:41.641> to<00:19:41.721> those<00:19:41.882> different<00:19:42.122> ways<00:19:42.299> of<00:19:42.443> thinking,<00:19:42.716> especially<00:19:43.261> when<00:19:43.646> they<00:19:43.807> identify<00:19:44.689> this<00:19:44.801> is<00:19:44.946> something<00:19:45.267> I<00:19:45.427> don't<00:19:45.652> understand<00:19:46.133> or<00:19:46.229> I<00:19:46.309> don't<00:19:46.486> agree<00:19:46.710> with<00:19:46.871> or<00:19:46.951> I<00:19:47.031> don't<00:19:47.272> think<00:19:47.497> will<00:19:47.673> work.

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Let's<00:19:48.459> see<00:19:48.571> what<00:19:48.700> we<00:19:48.796> can<00:19:49.021> learn<00:19:49.277> from<00:19:49.502> that<00:19:49.999> and<00:19:50.144> then<00:19:50.481> let's<00:19:50.705> be<00:19:50.801> open<00:19:51.026> to<00:19:51.106> change.

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And<00:19:51.684> that's<00:19:51.860> not<00:19:51.989> an<00:19:52.085> easy<00:19:52.325> process,<00:19:52.791> but<00:19:52.871> those<00:19:53.063> are<00:19:53.128> the<00:19:53.208> teams<00:19:53.529> that<00:19:53.850> come<00:19:54.010> up<00:19:54.154> with<00:19:54.347> incredible<00:19:54.812> ideas<00:19:55.678> more<00:19:55.919> than<00:19:56.079> once,<00:19:56.657> become<00:19:56.898> more<00:19:57.074> than<00:19:57.283> one-hit<00:19:57.604> wonders.

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I'm<00:19:59.144> sure<00:19:59.288> you've<00:19:59.448> seen<00:19:59.769> like<00:20:00.010> Coinbase<00:20:01.069> and<00:20:01.149> I<00:20:01.454> believe<00:20:01.646> it's<00:20:01.871> Basecamp<00:20:02.513> and<00:20:02.593> other<00:20:02.817> companies<00:20:03.235> who<00:20:03.331> have<00:20:03.475> kind<00:20:03.604> of<00:20:03.636> like<00:20:03.940> outlawed<00:20:04.759> politics.

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Or<00:20:06.862> talking<00:20:07.282> about<00:20:07.525> politics<00:20:08.236> within<00:20:08.494> the<00:20:08.640> company,<00:20:09.448> right?

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That<00:20:10.094> was<00:20:10.191> a<00:20:10.272> really<00:20:10.514> big<00:20:10.676> story<00:20:10.983> when<00:20:11.161> Coinbase<00:20:11.646> did<00:20:11.807> it,<00:20:12.454> and<00:20:12.599> it<00:20:12.696> caused<00:20:13.165> like<00:20:13.504> massive,<00:20:14.134> massive,<00:20:14.878> massive<00:20:15.250> disruption<00:20:15.994> to<00:20:16.252> Basecamp<00:20:16.883> when<00:20:17.061> they<00:20:17.223> did<00:20:17.449> it.

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And<00:20:19.794> you<00:20:20.280> write<00:20:20.474> about<00:20:20.765> this<00:20:21.024> and<00:20:21.088> you<00:20:21.169> touched<00:20:21.493> on<00:20:21.525> it<00:20:21.654> just<00:20:21.751> barely<00:20:22.156> in<00:20:22.463> your<00:20:22.625> answer<00:20:22.948> and<00:20:23.029> in<00:20:23.126> the<00:20:23.207> book<00:20:23.385> that<00:20:23.514> you<00:20:23.547> mentioned<00:20:23.870> about<00:20:24.097> the<00:20:24.323> art<00:20:24.436> of<00:20:24.614> debate<00:20:25.618> and<00:20:25.715> productive<00:20:26.282> conflict.

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I<00:20:27.562> wonder<00:20:27.821> if<00:20:27.966> you<00:20:28.064> have<00:20:28.371> any<00:20:28.614> advice<00:20:29.343> for<00:20:29.618> CEOs<00:20:30.719> or<00:20:30.898> leaders<00:20:31.448> who<00:20:31.545> are<00:20:31.707> running<00:20:32.015> teams,<00:20:32.274> running<00:20:32.517> companies<00:20:33.442> whether<00:20:33.747> they<00:20:33.844> should<00:20:34.806> do<00:20:35.031> the<00:20:35.127> Coinbase<00:20:35.769> Basecamp<00:20:36.427> approach,<00:20:37.052> should<00:20:37.213> they<00:20:37.373> do<00:20:37.534> something<00:20:37.999> different?

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I<00:20:38.977> mean,<00:20:39.138> how<00:20:39.523> do<00:20:39.844> you<00:20:40.887> manage,<00:20:41.384> given<00:20:41.641> that<00:20:42.010> it<00:20:42.106> does<00:20:42.363> seem<00:20:42.651> like<00:20:42.908> in<00:20:42.988> today's<00:20:43.534> world<00:20:43.951> we're<00:20:44.914> just<00:20:45.154> constantly<00:20:46.021> angry<00:20:46.598> and<00:20:46.823> throwing,<00:20:47.304> you<00:20:47.336> know,<00:20:47.561> wanting<00:20:48.026> to<00:20:48.347> fight<00:20:48.620> about<00:20:48.844> everything.

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How<00:20:50.449> do<00:20:50.834> you<00:20:51.235> remove<00:20:51.732> that<00:20:52.133> from<00:20:52.374> your<00:20:52.534> company<00:20:53.657> and<00:20:53.818> should<00:20:54.058> you?

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Yeah,<00:20:55.486> well,<00:20:55.663> and<00:20:55.807> a<00:20:55.823> lot<00:20:56.000> of<00:20:56.144> culture<00:20:56.609> revolves<00:20:56.962> around<00:20:57.187> politics,<00:20:57.748> which,<00:20:58.149> you<00:20:58.214> know,<00:20:59.114> If<00:20:59.680> we<00:20:59.906> live<00:21:00.489> where<00:21:00.650> we<00:21:00.812> live,<00:21:01.217> where<00:21:01.928> culture<00:21:02.268> is<00:21:02.575> all<00:21:02.672> around<00:21:03.061> us,<00:21:03.320> and<00:21:03.400> if<00:21:03.546> that's<00:21:03.724> what's<00:21:03.886> on<00:21:03.950> our<00:21:04.047> minds<00:21:04.306> and<00:21:04.355> we're<00:21:04.468> talking<00:21:04.759> about<00:21:04.921> work,<00:21:05.164> yeah,<00:21:05.325> how<00:21:05.422> do<00:21:05.471> you<00:21:05.503> deal<00:21:05.665> with<00:21:05.746> that?

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I<00:21:05.989> think<00:21:06.150> it's<00:21:06.247> a<00:21:06.393> fascinating<00:21:06.862> question.

00:21:07.880 --> 00:21:14.655
I<00:21:07.896> mean,<00:21:07.993> I<00:21:08.074> have<00:21:08.382> a<00:21:08.479> couple<00:21:08.949> of,<00:21:10.019> I<00:21:10.035> guess,<00:21:10.749> heuristics<00:21:11.300> for<00:21:11.413> this,<00:21:11.802> or<00:21:13.666> maybe<00:21:13.926> more<00:21:14.071> like<00:21:14.234> paradigms.

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I<00:21:16.192> think<00:21:16.594> the<00:21:16.980> efforts<00:21:17.478> with<00:21:17.799> Coinbase<00:21:18.265> and<00:21:18.361> Basecamp,<00:21:19.004> those<00:21:19.711> kinds<00:21:19.968> of<00:21:20.145> moves,<00:21:21.398> I<00:21:22.057> appreciate<00:21:23.101> because<00:21:23.487> they're<00:21:23.583> trying<00:21:23.824> to<00:21:23.921> solve<00:21:24.226> a<00:21:24.371> problem<00:21:25.013> and<00:21:25.174> they're<00:21:25.270> taking<00:21:26.513> drastic<00:21:27.144> action<00:21:27.403> to<00:21:27.484> do<00:21:27.662> so<00:21:27.970> in<00:21:28.051> the<00:21:28.197> face<00:21:28.602> of,<00:21:28.780> you<00:21:28.942> know,<00:21:30.075> a<00:21:30.140> lot<00:21:30.399> of<00:21:30.561> pushback,<00:21:31.678> um,<00:21:32.568> and,<00:21:32.892> uh,<00:21:33.135> you<00:21:33.167> know,<00:21:33.864> to<00:21:34.026> mixed<00:21:34.285> results,<00:21:34.770> right?

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The,<00:21:38.096> the<00:21:38.404> thing<00:21:38.907> that<00:21:39.167> makes<00:21:40.677> a<00:21:41.326> relationship<00:21:42.073> fall<00:21:42.251> apart<00:21:43.680> is<00:21:43.940> not<00:21:44.086> necessarily<00:21:45.625> how<00:21:45.723> much<00:21:45.885> you<00:21:46.128> argue.

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Statistically<00:21:47.927> speaking,<00:21:48.380> it's<00:21:48.542> when<00:21:48.623> you<00:21:48.721> stop<00:21:49.045> talking<00:21:49.434> about<00:21:49.628> important<00:21:50.082> things.

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So<00:21:51.135> research<00:21:51.541> on<00:21:51.622> marriages<00:21:53.087> It's<00:21:53.664> the<00:21:53.744> biggest<00:21:53.985> leading<00:21:54.225> indicator<00:21:54.690> that,<00:21:55.011> you<00:21:55.091> know,<00:21:55.668> separation<00:21:56.149> or<00:21:56.213> divorce<00:21:56.534> is<00:21:56.614> going<00:21:56.694> to<00:21:56.774> happen<00:21:57.047> is<00:21:57.175> when<00:21:57.288> you<00:21:57.368> stop<00:21:57.608> talking<00:21:57.913> about<00:21:58.073> important<00:21:58.458> things,<00:21:59.276> not<00:21:59.660> how<00:21:59.837> much<00:21:59.981> you<00:22:00.141> fight.

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Now,<00:22:00.702> fighting<00:22:01.039> is<00:22:01.183> also<00:22:01.424> not<00:22:01.600> good<00:22:01.761> for,<00:22:02.226> you<00:22:02.258> know,<00:22:02.482> relationship.

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It<00:22:03.059> erodes<00:22:03.348> things<00:22:03.540> over<00:22:03.684> time.

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But<00:22:04.967> just<00:22:05.272> having<00:22:05.592> arguments<00:22:06.394> is<00:22:06.570> not<00:22:06.811> the<00:22:06.971> thing<00:22:07.596> that<00:22:07.757> drives<00:22:08.174> you<00:22:08.334> apart.

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It's,<00:22:09.761> you<00:22:09.793> know,<00:22:10.097> going<00:22:10.402> apart.

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Same<00:22:11.540> thing<00:22:11.781> with,<00:22:12.021> you<00:22:12.406> know,<00:22:12.502> mergers<00:22:12.903> that<00:22:13.047> don't<00:22:13.208> work<00:22:13.448> out.

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This<00:22:13.721> is<00:22:13.785> something<00:22:14.106> that<00:22:14.266> I<00:22:14.603> dug<00:22:15.068> into.

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Mergers<00:22:15.773> that<00:22:15.869> don't<00:22:16.094> work<00:22:16.414> out,<00:22:16.895> you<00:22:16.927> know,<00:22:17.456> company<00:22:17.713> initiatives<00:22:18.258> where<00:22:18.338> you<00:22:18.434> combine<00:22:18.755> people,<00:22:18.996> diversity<00:22:19.477> initiatives<00:22:19.957> where<00:22:20.054> you're<00:22:20.262> getting<00:22:20.438> people<00:22:20.695> from<00:22:20.839> different<00:22:21.144> backgrounds.

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Of<00:22:23.005> different<00:22:24.916> race<00:22:25.333> or<00:22:25.494> gender<00:22:25.799> or<00:22:26.071> nationality<00:22:26.938> or<00:22:27.163> age<00:22:27.420> or<00:22:27.500> any<00:22:27.645> of<00:22:27.677> those<00:22:28.142> things<00:22:28.447> that<00:22:29.009> on<00:22:29.090> the<00:22:29.170> surface<00:22:29.748> indicate<00:22:30.005> someone<00:22:30.294> might<00:22:30.856> think<00:22:31.016> differently,<00:22:32.381> when<00:22:32.638> those<00:22:32.894> initiatives<00:22:33.360> don't<00:22:33.601> work<00:22:33.906> out,<00:22:34.468> a<00:22:34.725> lot<00:22:35.030> of<00:22:35.110> the<00:22:35.206> time,<00:22:35.527> a<00:22:35.592> huge<00:22:35.929> percentage<00:22:36.314> of<00:22:36.346> the<00:22:36.410> time,<00:22:36.812> it's<00:22:37.277> due<00:22:37.534> to<00:22:39.300> stocking<00:22:40.087> your<00:22:40.263> group<00:22:40.504> with<00:22:40.665> people<00:22:41.050> who<00:22:41.371> you<00:22:41.467> think<00:22:41.949> are<00:22:42.093> different<00:22:42.511> and<00:22:42.591> then<00:22:42.752> not<00:22:42.992> allowing<00:22:43.474> them<00:22:44.180> to<00:22:44.341> express<00:22:44.758> their<00:22:44.871> differences<00:22:45.384> or<00:22:45.465> people<00:22:45.802> being<00:22:45.978> afraid<00:22:46.589> to<00:22:46.845> express<00:22:47.311> when<00:22:47.407> they<00:22:47.568> do<00:22:47.793> have<00:22:47.969> something<00:22:48.290> different<00:22:48.531> to<00:22:48.563> say.

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To<00:22:48.724> say.

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And<00:22:49.815> so<00:22:50.200> really<00:22:50.537> the<00:22:51.082> hard<00:22:51.339> part<00:22:51.516> is<00:22:51.740> dealing<00:22:52.222> with<00:22:52.863> the<00:22:52.912> hard<00:22:53.168> conversations.

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So<00:22:54.773> I<00:22:54.789> think<00:22:54.949> when<00:22:55.094> it<00:22:55.126> comes<00:22:55.334> to<00:22:55.511> politics<00:22:56.233> at<00:22:56.297> work,<00:22:56.538> like<00:22:57.115> not<00:22:57.276> work<00:22:57.436> politics,<00:22:57.821> but<00:22:58.014> like<00:22:58.720> national<00:22:59.105> politics,<00:22:59.506> I<00:22:59.522> assume,<00:22:59.827> right?

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Or<00:23:00.068> local<00:23:00.308> politics.

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The<00:23:01.849> thing<00:23:02.330> that<00:23:02.491> is<00:23:02.635> a<00:23:02.715> problem<00:23:03.357> is<00:23:03.598> when<00:23:04.480> those<00:23:04.737> conversations<00:23:06.486> start<00:23:06.887> to<00:23:07.641> erode<00:23:08.508> the<00:23:09.246> important<00:23:09.695> conversations<00:23:10.273> you<00:23:10.369> need<00:23:10.593> to<00:23:10.738> have<00:23:11.316> about<00:23:11.797> work.

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You<00:23:12.695> know,<00:23:12.920> we've<00:23:13.080> convened<00:23:13.642> for<00:23:13.803> work<00:23:14.043> purposes,<00:23:14.525> and<00:23:14.605> if<00:23:14.701> our<00:23:14.845> work<00:23:15.070> is<00:23:15.182> not<00:23:15.487> inherently<00:23:16.033> about<00:23:16.274> politics,<00:23:17.252> then<00:23:17.477> talking<00:23:17.829> about<00:23:18.054> politics<00:23:19.160> is<00:23:19.320> fine<00:23:19.962> unless<00:23:20.218> it<00:23:20.315> makes<00:23:20.539> it<00:23:20.603> so<00:23:20.763> we<00:23:20.860> can't<00:23:21.164> work<00:23:21.341> together<00:23:21.822> and<00:23:21.902> talk<00:23:22.078> about<00:23:22.287> the<00:23:22.367> hard<00:23:22.543> things<00:23:22.768> about<00:23:23.008> work.

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And<00:23:23.794> I<00:23:23.826> think<00:23:23.970> that's<00:23:24.211> what,<00:23:24.692> you<00:23:24.724> know,<00:23:25.173> I<00:23:25.253> would<00:23:25.590> hypothesize<00:23:26.632> this<00:23:26.792> is<00:23:26.872> part<00:23:27.129> of<00:23:27.177> the<00:23:27.337> rationale<00:23:27.931> for,<00:23:28.139> you<00:23:28.171> know,<00:23:28.476> Coinbase.

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Like,<00:23:29.502> yeah,<00:23:29.759> people<00:23:30.063> talking<00:23:30.240> about<00:23:30.384> politics<00:23:30.801> is<00:23:30.881> making<00:23:31.186> them<00:23:31.346> fight<00:23:31.586> and<00:23:31.667> hate<00:23:31.843> each<00:23:32.003> other,<00:23:32.180> and<00:23:32.324> then<00:23:32.468> we<00:23:32.564> can't<00:23:32.789> get<00:23:32.965> work<00:23:33.142> done.

00:23:34.072 --> 00:23:38.962
Um,<00:23:34.713> so<00:23:35.050> banning<00:23:35.435> it<00:23:35.515> altogether,<00:23:35.996> I<00:23:36.092> think,<00:23:36.268> is,<00:23:36.717> you<00:23:36.749> know,<00:23:37.054> it's<00:23:37.214> an<00:23:37.695> approach,<00:23:38.256> it's<00:23:38.417> an<00:23:38.497> attempt.

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I<00:23:39.603> think<00:23:39.764> were<00:23:40.004> I<00:23:40.100> to<00:23:40.197> make<00:23:40.517> a<00:23:40.742> rule<00:23:41.447> on<00:23:41.624> this,<00:23:42.008> and<00:23:42.345> I<00:23:42.361> mean,<00:23:42.586> I'm<00:23:42.746> building<00:23:43.003> a<00:23:43.067> company<00:23:43.387> right<00:23:43.548> now,<00:23:43.772> you<00:23:43.804> know,<00:23:44.269> we're<00:23:44.365> small<00:23:44.670> enough<00:23:45.007> and<00:23:45.873> I<00:23:45.889> think<00:23:46.113> disinterested<00:23:46.915> in<00:23:47.219> talking<00:23:47.492> about<00:23:47.636> politics<00:23:48.053> enough<00:23:48.358> that<00:23:48.518> it's<00:23:48.743> fine<00:23:48.983> for<00:23:49.095> now.

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But<00:23:49.560> at<00:23:49.640> a<00:23:49.705> certain<00:23:49.961> point,<00:23:50.282> you<00:23:50.378> know,<00:23:50.522> there'll<00:23:50.763> be<00:23:50.923> that<00:23:51.099> interest.

00:23:51.949 --> 00:23:55.220
You<00:23:51.981> know,<00:23:52.190> when<00:23:52.607> we're<00:23:52.767> 100<00:23:53.168> people,<00:23:53.889> I'm<00:23:54.034> sure<00:23:54.274> that'll,<00:23:54.595> that'll<00:23:54.771> be<00:23:54.915> a<00:23:55.012> thing.

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When<00:23:56.054> I've<00:23:56.214> thought<00:23:56.358> about<00:23:56.599> this,<00:23:56.839> I've<00:23:56.936> thought<00:23:57.112> about,<00:23:58.058> you<00:23:58.138> know,<00:23:58.924> the,<00:23:59.421> the<00:23:59.501> heuristic<00:24:00.367> is<00:24:01.890> if<00:24:02.371> a<00:24:02.467> conversation<00:24:03.108> becomes<00:24:03.509> personal,<00:24:04.535> then<00:24:04.632> it<00:24:04.728> is<00:24:04.888> no<00:24:05.097> longer<00:24:05.417> productive.

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And,<00:24:07.502> uh,<00:24:07.758> if<00:24:07.918> we<00:24:08.015> are<00:24:08.079> having<00:24:08.383> these<00:24:08.544> conversations<00:24:09.506> at<00:24:09.682> work<00:24:09.987> with<00:24:10.099> our<00:24:10.227> colleagues<00:24:10.708> who<00:24:10.804> we<00:24:11.109> want<00:24:11.366> to<00:24:11.863> make<00:24:12.071> progress<00:24:12.488> with<00:24:12.744> together,<00:24:13.097> we<00:24:13.274> want<00:24:13.418> to<00:24:13.450> care<00:24:13.690> about.

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Then<00:24:14.572> we<00:24:14.717> have<00:24:14.957> to<00:24:15.038> identify<00:24:15.519> when<00:24:15.679> conversations<00:24:16.177> get<00:24:16.337> personal.

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So<00:24:17.845> I<00:24:17.925> would<00:24:18.086> say<00:24:18.439> talk<00:24:18.679> about<00:24:18.824> politics<00:24:19.289> all<00:24:19.369> you<00:24:19.529> want,<00:24:19.786> but<00:24:20.091> the<00:24:20.123> second<00:24:20.588> that<00:24:20.973> you're<00:24:21.310> getting<00:24:21.631> mad<00:24:22.337> at<00:24:22.513> each<00:24:22.658> other,<00:24:23.476> that<00:24:23.636> means<00:24:23.893> it's<00:24:24.037> personal<00:24:24.342> for<00:24:24.454> you.

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If<00:24:24.695> it's<00:24:24.839> mad,<00:24:25.096> it's<00:24:25.240> personal<00:24:25.625> for<00:24:25.802> them<00:24:26.219> if<00:24:26.363> they're<00:24:26.540> mad.

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And<00:24:28.529> that's<00:24:28.834> when<00:24:28.994> you<00:24:29.090> need<00:24:29.957> to<00:24:30.117> pull<00:24:30.293> back.

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And,<00:24:31.096> you<00:24:31.834> know,<00:24:31.962> I<00:24:32.202> would<00:24:32.299> dare<00:24:32.523> say<00:24:33.646> employ<00:24:34.384> some<00:24:34.705> mechanisms<00:24:35.427> to,<00:24:35.988> like,<00:24:36.389> recognize<00:24:37.015> this<00:24:37.192> and<00:24:37.256> to<00:24:37.288> acknowledge<00:24:37.737> with<00:24:37.897> each<00:24:38.058> other,<00:24:38.218> like,<00:24:38.379> hey,<00:24:38.555> this<00:24:38.860> is—<00:24:39.502> I'm<00:24:39.598> feeling<00:24:39.903> like<00:24:40.015> this<00:24:40.159> is<00:24:40.304> getting<00:24:40.480> personal.

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You<00:24:41.122> know,<00:24:41.442> let's—<00:24:42.244> perhaps<00:24:42.517> let's<00:24:42.966> change<00:24:43.222> the<00:24:43.350> subject.

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Um,<00:24:44.970> expressing<00:24:45.611> that,<00:24:45.852> like,<00:24:46.092> hey,<00:24:46.317> I<00:24:46.397> would<00:24:46.557> like<00:24:46.718> to<00:24:46.798> be<00:24:46.894> able<00:24:47.119> to,<00:24:47.616> you<00:24:48.032> know,<00:24:48.257> maintain<00:24:49.203> respect<00:24:49.604> and<00:24:49.684> a<00:24:49.700> great<00:24:49.941> relationship,<00:24:50.438> and<00:24:50.566> I'm<00:24:50.742> finding<00:24:51.047> that<00:24:51.143> this<00:24:51.303> is,<00:24:51.849> you<00:24:51.929> know,<00:24:52.185> overwhelming—<00:24:53.147> that's<00:24:53.372> hard<00:24:53.548> to<00:24:53.709> do,<00:24:53.949> especially<00:24:54.270> if<00:24:54.350> you're<00:24:54.430> not<00:24:54.526> in<00:24:54.606> a<00:24:54.671> position<00:24:55.071> of<00:24:55.152> power.

00:24:55.633 --> 00:25:02.078
But,<00:24:56.499> you<00:24:56.531> know,<00:24:56.579> if<00:24:56.739> you're<00:24:56.867> not<00:24:56.980> in<00:24:57.060> a<00:24:57.076> position<00:24:57.461> of<00:24:57.541> power<00:24:57.958> and<00:24:58.038> you're<00:24:58.198> getting<00:24:58.599> in<00:24:58.695> arguments<00:24:59.080> about<00:24:59.240> politics,<00:24:59.721> that<00:24:59.882> is<00:24:59.978> a<00:25:00.122> very,<00:25:00.683> you<00:25:00.764> know,<00:25:00.924> tricky<00:25:01.469> place<00:25:01.726> to<00:25:01.886> be.

00:25:02.688 --> 00:25:10.273
But<00:25:02.768> I<00:25:02.848> think<00:25:02.992> that's<00:25:03.153> the<00:25:03.233> general<00:25:03.489> thing,<00:25:03.650> like,<00:25:03.970> with<00:25:04.355> even<00:25:04.596> work<00:25:04.997> debates,<00:25:05.333> you<00:25:05.430> know,<00:25:05.574> we're<00:25:05.734> arguing<00:25:05.975> about,<00:25:06.440> you<00:25:06.552> know,<00:25:06.760> what's<00:25:06.937> the<00:25:07.001> strategy<00:25:07.498> we<00:25:07.578> should<00:25:07.819> go<00:25:08.059> with,<00:25:08.380> with,<00:25:08.845> you<00:25:08.877> know,<00:25:09.182> We<00:25:09.310> have<00:25:09.487> limited<00:25:09.824> information.

00:25:10.322 --> 00:25:11.799
We<00:25:10.386> got<00:25:10.498> to<00:25:10.627> pick<00:25:10.852> a<00:25:11.430> path.

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The<00:25:13.260> moment<00:25:13.758> that<00:25:14.063> it<00:25:14.159> gets<00:25:14.400> personal<00:25:15.187> is<00:25:15.347> the<00:25:15.428> moment<00:25:15.765> when<00:25:17.130> variables<00:25:17.772> are<00:25:17.852> going<00:25:17.965> to<00:25:18.013> start<00:25:18.318> to<00:25:18.960> come<00:25:19.137> into<00:25:19.362> play<00:25:19.699> that<00:25:19.843> are<00:25:19.875> not<00:25:20.261> going<00:25:20.373> to<00:25:20.485> be<00:25:20.823> productive<00:25:21.224> to<00:25:21.385> the<00:25:21.545> team.

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If<00:25:22.733> I'm<00:25:22.990> worrying<00:25:23.247> about<00:25:23.472> the<00:25:23.536> decision<00:25:23.873> we<00:25:24.018> make<00:25:24.195> because<00:25:24.516> of<00:25:24.596> my<00:25:24.821> promotion<00:25:26.105> or<00:25:26.266> because<00:25:26.667> of<00:25:27.085> how<00:25:27.390> I'm<00:25:27.647> going<00:25:27.743> to<00:25:27.888> look—<00:25:28.144> I'm<00:25:28.225> going<00:25:28.321> to<00:25:28.433> look<00:25:28.594> bad<00:25:28.851> if<00:25:29.028> someone<00:25:29.317> else's<00:25:29.574> idea<00:25:29.959> wins<00:25:30.280> out,<00:25:30.778> whatever<00:25:31.163> it<00:25:32.078> is—<00:25:32.383> that<00:25:32.480> means<00:25:32.705> it's<00:25:32.865> personal.

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That's<00:25:33.427> another<00:25:33.668> factor.

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And<00:25:35.753> ideally,<00:25:36.234> teams<00:25:36.538> should<00:25:36.714> set<00:25:36.939> up<00:25:37.099> the<00:25:37.195> incentives<00:25:37.692> so<00:25:38.092> that<00:25:38.397> that's<00:25:38.637> not<00:25:38.797> the<00:25:38.958> case.

00:25:39.438 --> 00:25:44.005
We<00:25:39.519> should<00:25:39.679> all<00:25:39.823> get<00:25:39.919> promotions<00:25:40.560> if<00:25:41.265> we<00:25:41.441> get<00:25:41.666> to<00:25:41.778> the<00:25:41.906> right<00:25:42.082> idea,<00:25:42.243> no<00:25:42.339> matter<00:25:42.627> who<00:25:42.803> brought<00:25:42.980> it<00:25:43.108> up,<00:25:43.765> right?

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But<00:25:45.367> it's<00:25:45.479> not<00:25:45.688> always<00:25:45.928> that<00:25:46.152> way.

00:25:46.953 --> 00:25:49.181
But<00:25:47.130> I<00:25:47.370> think<00:25:47.835> leaders<00:25:48.171> need<00:25:48.331> to<00:25:48.395> identify<00:25:48.972> that.

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And<00:25:49.357> I<00:25:49.453> think<00:25:49.613> there's<00:25:50.174> this<00:25:50.334> kind<00:25:50.495> of<00:25:50.639> training<00:25:51.280> of<00:25:51.376> this<00:25:51.616> meta<00:25:51.857> skill<00:25:52.113> of<00:25:52.257> recognizing<00:25:53.699> when<00:25:53.843> a<00:25:53.859> conversation<00:25:54.500> is<00:25:54.885> becoming<00:25:55.285> personal<00:25:55.782> in<00:25:55.942> a<00:25:56.311> way<00:25:56.647> that's<00:25:56.824> not<00:25:56.984> productive.

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And<00:25:58.106> then,<00:25:58.747> practicing<00:25:59.291> taking<00:25:59.628> time.

00:26:00.109 --> 00:26:00.781
It<00:26:00.173> happens<00:26:00.429> all<00:26:00.509> the<00:26:00.653> time.

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We<00:26:00.974> care.

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If<00:26:01.470> we<00:26:01.631> care,<00:26:02.673> That's<00:26:02.898> good,<00:26:03.556> but<00:26:03.620> that<00:26:03.861> means<00:26:04.519> that<00:26:04.840> we<00:26:05.096> need<00:26:05.305> to<00:26:05.546> make<00:26:05.706> sure<00:26:05.883> that<00:26:06.043> we<00:26:06.188> care<00:26:07.231> for<00:26:07.391> the<00:26:07.472> right<00:26:07.712> reasons<00:26:08.130> because<00:26:08.451> we<00:26:08.531> care<00:26:08.691> about,<00:26:09.077> you<00:26:09.109> know,<00:26:09.895> the<00:26:10.040> team<00:26:10.296> winning,<00:26:10.698> not<00:26:11.340> about<00:26:11.725> because<00:26:11.982> of<00:26:12.046> some<00:26:12.303> other<00:26:12.543> thing,<00:26:13.089> you<00:26:13.121> know,<00:26:13.330> representing<00:26:13.811> a<00:26:13.907> group<00:26:14.148> like<00:26:14.309> our<00:26:14.389> political<00:26:14.854> group.

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We<00:26:15.191> care.

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It's<00:26:15.898> important<00:26:16.186> to<00:26:16.315> us,<00:26:16.877> but<00:26:17.037> now<00:26:17.358> I'm<00:26:17.502> fighting<00:26:17.839> on<00:26:17.920> behalf<00:26:18.225> of<00:26:18.385> all<00:26:18.562> these<00:26:18.802> people<00:26:19.364> behind<00:26:19.765> me,<00:26:20.070> you<00:26:20.102> know,<00:26:20.311> and<00:26:20.648> I,<00:26:20.744> I<00:26:20.792> better<00:26:21.033> win<00:26:21.194> this<00:26:21.354> argument.

00:26:22.173 --> 00:26:24.837
And<00:26:22.301> then<00:26:22.413> suddenly,<00:26:22.959> you<00:26:22.991> know,<00:26:23.136> it's<00:26:23.858> work<00:26:24.099> is<00:26:24.243> affected<00:26:24.596> by<00:26:24.757> it.

00:26:24.901 --> 00:26:29.799
So<00:26:25.045> I<00:26:25.142> think<00:26:25.302> that's,<00:26:26.329> you<00:26:26.362> know,<00:26:26.522> it's<00:26:26.731> not<00:26:26.971> as<00:26:27.068> simple<00:26:27.613> as<00:26:27.790> like,<00:26:27.950> hey,<00:26:28.352> No<00:26:28.513> talking<00:26:28.770> about<00:26:28.915> politics<00:26:29.397> at<00:26:29.478> work.

00:26:30.909 --> 00:26:36.963
But<00:26:32.839> that's<00:26:33.258> the<00:26:33.579> underlying<00:26:34.528> kind<00:26:34.641> of<00:26:34.770> principle<00:26:35.188> that<00:26:35.333> I<00:26:35.429> would<00:26:35.526> say<00:26:36.142> is<00:26:36.389> really<00:26:36.717> afoot.

00:26:37.949 --> 00:26:40.477
You<00:26:38.113> also<00:26:38.359> write<00:26:38.523> about<00:26:38.704> this<00:26:38.868> thing<00:26:39.098> called<00:26:39.525> lateral<00:26:40.018> thinking.

00:26:41.987 --> 00:26:50.547
And<00:26:42.554> I<00:26:42.715> wonder<00:26:43.476> if<00:26:43.621> you<00:26:43.702> could<00:26:43.864> go<00:26:44.026> a<00:26:44.107> little<00:26:44.268> bit<00:26:44.430> deeper<00:26:44.818> on<00:26:44.996> what<00:26:45.142> you<00:26:45.239> mean<00:26:45.546> by<00:26:45.789> that<00:26:46.355> and<00:26:46.533> kind<00:26:46.695> of<00:26:46.776> how<00:26:47.002> it<00:26:47.164> relates<00:26:47.665> to<00:26:48.474> being<00:26:48.717> a<00:26:48.862> leader<00:26:49.671> and<00:26:49.914> working<00:26:50.076> with<00:26:50.173> teams.

00:26:51.880 --> 00:26:52.124
Yeah.

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This<00:26:52.254> is<00:26:52.351> one<00:26:52.432> of<00:26:52.465> my<00:26:52.611> favorite<00:26:52.969> topics.

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Lateral<00:26:54.220> thinking<00:26:54.870> is<00:26:55.293> a<00:26:55.374> fancy<00:26:55.764> way<00:26:55.943> of<00:26:56.024> saying<00:26:57.016> approaching<00:26:57.434> problems<00:26:58.060> from<00:26:58.622> new<00:26:58.863> angles<00:26:59.280> or<00:26:59.441> different<00:26:59.746> angles<00:27:00.067> than<00:27:00.228> they've<00:27:00.388> been<00:27:00.484> approached<00:27:00.886> before.

00:27:02.074 --> 00:27:11.467
And<00:27:02.636> it's,<00:27:03.680> it's<00:27:04.258> part<00:27:04.498> and<00:27:04.643> parcel<00:27:05.060> to<00:27:05.205> this<00:27:05.382> idea<00:27:06.184> that<00:27:07.212> the<00:27:07.308> only<00:27:07.629> way<00:27:07.790> to<00:27:07.870> change<00:27:08.432> the<00:27:08.512> game<00:27:09.299> is<00:27:09.620> to<00:27:10.519> rethink<00:27:11.081> the<00:27:11.162> game.

00:27:12.302 --> 00:27:20.265
You<00:27:12.446> know,<00:27:12.591> you<00:27:12.671> can't—<00:27:14.036> we<00:27:14.116> can<00:27:14.276> all<00:27:14.533> get<00:27:14.694> better<00:27:14.999> at,<00:27:15.176> you<00:27:15.272> know,<00:27:15.577> if<00:27:15.738> we're<00:27:15.818> using<00:27:16.075> a<00:27:16.139> sports<00:27:16.460> analogy,<00:27:16.926> you<00:27:17.022> know,<00:27:17.183> you<00:27:17.327> can<00:27:18.130> make<00:27:18.290> your<00:27:18.371> muscles<00:27:18.644> stronger,<00:27:19.109> you<00:27:19.190> can<00:27:19.350> learn<00:27:19.495> to<00:27:19.575> run<00:27:19.735> faster.

00:27:21.357 --> 00:27:23.139
The<00:27:21.437> high<00:27:21.678> jump<00:27:22.015> is<00:27:22.240> the<00:27:22.320> classic<00:27:22.722> example.

00:27:23.187 --> 00:27:25.403
You<00:27:23.284> can<00:27:23.444> practice<00:27:23.830> jumping<00:27:24.151> over<00:27:24.231> the<00:27:24.311> high<00:27:24.488> jump<00:27:24.649> bar<00:27:24.745> like<00:27:24.970> everyone<00:27:25.275> else.

00:27:26.317 --> 00:27:27.712
Or<00:27:26.478> you<00:27:26.558> can<00:27:26.654> practice<00:27:27.039> jumping<00:27:27.360> a<00:27:27.376> different<00:27:27.616> way.

00:27:27.777 --> 00:27:32.555
The<00:27:27.857> guy<00:27:28.081> who<00:27:28.177> originally<00:27:28.723> jumped<00:27:28.979> over<00:27:29.156> the<00:27:29.188> high<00:27:29.380> jump<00:27:29.540> bar<00:27:29.701> backwards,<00:27:30.246> Dick<00:27:30.422> Fosbury,<00:27:31.449> was<00:27:31.689> not<00:27:31.946> the<00:27:32.026> best<00:27:32.331> athlete.

00:27:32.667 --> 00:27:38.649
He<00:27:32.732> was<00:27:32.828> an<00:27:32.892> amazing<00:27:33.293> athlete<00:27:33.533> but<00:27:33.646> not<00:27:33.854> the<00:27:33.950> best<00:27:34.271> in<00:27:34.351> the<00:27:34.431> group,<00:27:34.752> but<00:27:34.896> he<00:27:35.073> won<00:27:35.233> the<00:27:35.378> Olympics<00:27:35.746> because<00:27:35.939> he<00:27:36.035> found<00:27:36.259> a<00:27:36.356> better<00:27:36.741> way<00:27:36.917> to<00:27:37.077> approach<00:27:38.120> the<00:27:38.200> challenge.

00:27:39.162 --> 00:27:51.686
And<00:27:39.242> so<00:27:39.322> that's<00:27:39.867> the<00:27:40.028> principle<00:27:40.365> of<00:27:40.461> innovation<00:27:41.006> of,<00:27:41.567> you<00:27:41.663> know,<00:27:41.952> we're<00:27:42.113> all<00:27:42.193> playing<00:27:42.369> the<00:27:42.449> same<00:27:42.690> game<00:27:43.716> and<00:27:43.973> we<00:27:44.293> are<00:27:44.374> playing<00:27:44.614> within<00:27:44.855> the<00:27:45.015> boundaries<00:27:45.640> of<00:27:45.737> that<00:27:45.977> game,<00:27:46.522> but<00:27:47.404> changing<00:27:47.982> the<00:27:48.078> game<00:27:48.848> requires<00:27:49.585> rethinking<00:27:50.066> the<00:27:50.211> rules<00:27:50.547> or<00:27:50.627> the<00:27:50.772> assumptions<00:27:51.269> about<00:27:51.525> it.

00:27:51.814 --> 00:28:00.458
And<00:27:52.616> I<00:27:52.808> think<00:27:53.017> it's<00:27:53.690> a<00:27:53.835> chewy<00:27:54.220> concept<00:27:54.621> because<00:27:54.957> the<00:27:55.102> world<00:27:55.278> is<00:27:55.503> always<00:27:55.759> changing,<00:27:56.385> which<00:27:56.561> means<00:27:56.721> the<00:27:56.802> circumstances<00:27:57.988> and<00:27:58.229> the<00:27:58.389> rules<00:27:58.710> and<00:27:58.790> assumptions<00:27:59.287> and<00:27:59.368> all<00:27:59.432> of<00:27:59.528> that<00:27:59.769> are<00:27:59.849> always<00:28:00.153> changing.

00:28:01.132 --> 00:28:11.893
Classic<00:28:01.453> story<00:28:01.934> that<00:28:02.094> I<00:28:02.319> love<00:28:02.479> telling<00:28:02.896> is<00:28:04.179> the—<00:28:04.500> you<00:28:04.580> know<00:28:04.660> how<00:28:04.724> newspapers<00:28:05.221> are<00:28:05.285> all<00:28:05.446> enormous,<00:28:06.584> the<00:28:07.531> big<00:28:07.707> classic<00:28:08.092> newspaper<00:28:08.445> size<00:28:08.894> like<00:28:09.070> the<00:28:09.102> New<00:28:09.215> York<00:28:09.375> Times<00:28:09.616> is<00:28:09.648> this<00:28:09.936> huge<00:28:10.273> broadsheet,<00:28:10.834> enormous<00:28:11.396> newspapers.

00:28:12.438 --> 00:28:14.170
Do<00:28:12.502> you<00:28:12.534> know<00:28:12.999> why<00:28:13.384> they're<00:28:13.705> that<00:28:13.898> size?

00:28:14.683 --> 00:28:14.828
No.

00:28:16.207 --> 00:28:16.463
Okay.

00:28:18.308 --> 00:28:25.983
I<00:28:18.404> don't<00:28:18.645> know<00:28:18.774> how<00:28:18.870> many<00:28:18.998> years<00:28:19.191> ago<00:28:19.336> now,<00:28:19.576> a<00:28:19.592> decade<00:28:19.898> ago,<00:28:20.716> The<00:28:20.861> Independent<00:28:22.386> in<00:28:22.467> the<00:28:22.547> UK,<00:28:23.430> they're<00:28:23.751> that<00:28:23.912> big<00:28:24.072> broadsheet<00:28:24.490> size,<00:28:24.955> well-respected<00:28:25.533> newspaper.

00:28:27.027 --> 00:28:34.943
Their<00:28:27.524> finance<00:28:28.632> team<00:28:29.130> basically<00:28:29.596> proposed<00:28:30.077> to<00:28:30.254> the<00:28:30.479> news<00:28:30.736> team,<00:28:31.683> "Hey,<00:28:32.085> you<00:28:32.117> know,<00:28:32.341> these<00:28:32.582> huge<00:28:33.289> newspapers<00:28:33.947> are<00:28:33.995> expensive<00:28:34.493> to<00:28:34.589> print.

00:28:35.232 --> 00:28:40.016
And<00:28:35.874> if<00:28:36.018> we<00:28:36.115> just<00:28:36.773> switch<00:28:37.142> to<00:28:37.255> a<00:28:37.319> smaller<00:28:37.720> size,<00:28:38.042> a<00:28:38.122> tabloid<00:28:38.604> size,<00:28:39.310> we<00:28:39.390> save<00:28:39.567> a<00:28:39.631> ton<00:28:39.808> of<00:28:39.840> money.

00:28:40.209 --> 00:28:46.084
We<00:28:40.289> could<00:28:40.386> avoid<00:28:40.755> layoffs,<00:28:41.397> you<00:28:41.429> know,<00:28:41.895> better<00:28:42.056> for<00:28:42.168> the<00:28:42.280> business,<00:28:42.602> blah,<00:28:42.714> blah,<00:28:42.859> blah."<00:28:43.806> and<00:28:44.062> the<00:28:44.159> news<00:28:44.383> team<00:28:45.169> sort<00:28:45.282> of<00:28:45.426> flipped<00:28:45.811> out.

00:28:46.549 --> 00:28:49.051
They<00:28:46.629> were<00:28:46.725> like,<00:28:46.934> no,<00:28:47.271> people<00:28:47.592> respect<00:28:48.153> the<00:28:48.313> big<00:28:48.554> newspapers.

00:28:49.099 --> 00:28:51.169
This<00:28:49.292> is,<00:28:49.517> you<00:28:49.597> know,<00:28:49.821> have<00:28:50.222> you<00:28:50.303> seen<00:28:50.639> tabloids?

00:28:51.425 --> 00:28:54.297
Yeah,<00:28:51.586> they're<00:28:51.666> like,<00:28:51.843> size<00:28:52.244> matters<00:28:52.805> when<00:28:52.949> it<00:28:53.046> comes<00:28:53.238> to<00:28:53.302> newspapers.

00:28:55.051 --> 00:29:02.318
Yeah,<00:28:55.596> they're<00:28:55.693> like,<00:28:55.997> you<00:28:56.078> look<00:28:56.190> at<00:28:56.334> tabloids,<00:28:56.880> that<00:28:56.976> tabloid<00:28:57.313> size<00:28:57.634> is<00:28:57.762> associated<00:28:58.339> with<00:28:58.580> like<00:28:58.885> aliens<00:28:59.302> worshiping<00:28:59.928> Oprah<00:29:00.489> and<00:29:01.147> gossip<00:29:01.532> about<00:29:01.772> celebrities.

00:29:02.494 --> 00:29:03.761
And<00:29:02.895> no,<00:29:03.056> we're<00:29:03.152> serious<00:29:03.569> news.

00:29:03.810 --> 00:29:04.371
We<00:29:03.874> can't<00:29:04.098> do<00:29:04.195> that.

00:29:05.141 --> 00:29:10.627
And,<00:29:05.799> and<00:29:05.895> someone,<00:29:06.906> I<00:29:07.082> don't<00:29:07.275> know<00:29:07.467> who<00:29:07.563> it<00:29:07.788> was,<00:29:08.590> but<00:29:08.686> as<00:29:08.831> the<00:29:08.863> story<00:29:09.087> goes,<00:29:09.408> you<00:29:09.568> know,<00:29:09.665> this<00:29:09.777> is<00:29:09.873> a<00:29:10.034> news<00:29:10.290> team.

00:29:10.852 --> 00:29:18.259
So<00:29:10.948> someone<00:29:11.270> decided<00:29:11.655> to<00:29:11.800> do<00:29:11.977> the<00:29:12.764> reporting<00:29:13.246> work<00:29:13.439> of<00:29:13.567> finding<00:29:13.889> out<00:29:14.049> why<00:29:14.226> did<00:29:14.467> we<00:29:16.218> have—<00:29:16.540> why<00:29:16.636> do<00:29:16.716> we<00:29:16.797> have<00:29:16.973> the<00:29:17.102> broadsheet<00:29:17.520> size<00:29:17.777> in<00:29:17.841> the<00:29:17.921> first<00:29:18.082> place?

00:29:18.307 --> 00:29:21.348
Who<00:29:18.403> decided<00:29:19.046> that<00:29:19.271> this<00:29:19.512> was<00:29:19.849> the<00:29:20.090> format<00:29:20.412> for<00:29:20.557> respectable<00:29:21.058> news?

00:29:22.252 --> 00:29:25.449
And<00:29:22.446> what<00:29:22.591> they<00:29:22.672> found<00:29:22.979> out<00:29:23.318> is<00:29:23.479> that<00:29:24.044> newspapers<00:29:24.448> didn't<00:29:24.674> used<00:29:24.835> to<00:29:24.932> be<00:29:25.013> that<00:29:25.110> size.

00:29:25.497 --> 00:29:26.385
They<00:29:25.546> were<00:29:25.594> originally<00:29:25.917> smaller.

00:29:26.934 --> 00:29:33.633
But<00:29:27.031> in<00:29:27.128> the<00:29:27.176> 1850s<00:29:28.629> in<00:29:28.791> England,<00:29:29.816> a<00:29:29.913> tax<00:29:30.301> was<00:29:30.479> passed<00:29:31.288> based<00:29:31.530> on<00:29:31.595> the<00:29:31.627> number<00:29:32.015> of<00:29:32.161> pages<00:29:32.581> you<00:29:32.727> had<00:29:32.889> in<00:29:32.970> your<00:29:33.083> newspaper.

00:29:34.280 --> 00:29:39.019
And<00:29:34.377> so<00:29:34.991> the<00:29:35.024> newspaper<00:29:35.412> companies<00:29:36.301> printed<00:29:36.625> enormous<00:29:37.353> pages<00:29:37.935> so<00:29:38.064> they<00:29:38.161> could<00:29:38.307> pay<00:29:38.469> less<00:29:38.647> taxes.

00:29:39.823 --> 00:29:49.055
And<00:29:39.919> now<00:29:40.064> 150<00:29:40.626> years<00:29:40.931> later,<00:29:42.007> it's<00:29:42.215> assumed<00:29:43.034> that<00:29:43.355> newspapers<00:29:43.901> are<00:29:44.062> big<00:29:44.319> because<00:29:44.640> people<00:29:44.865> respect<00:29:45.202> that<00:29:45.362> size,<00:29:45.844> but<00:29:46.069> actually<00:29:46.262> it<00:29:46.294> was<00:29:46.406> a<00:29:46.486> way<00:29:46.647> to<00:29:47.145> save<00:29:47.450> on<00:29:47.610> taxes<00:29:48.076> 150<00:29:48.638> years<00:29:48.830> ago.

00:29:50.163 --> 00:29:55.301
So,<00:29:51.046> uh,<00:29:51.207> the,<00:29:51.544> the<00:29:51.849> more—<00:29:52.170> the<00:29:52.331> end<00:29:52.411> of<00:29:52.507> the<00:29:52.572> story<00:29:52.812> is<00:29:52.973> they<00:29:53.069> switched<00:29:53.262> to<00:29:53.390> the<00:29:53.471> tabloid<00:29:53.872> size<00:29:54.498> and<00:29:54.611> everything<00:29:54.916> was<00:29:55.076> fine.

00:29:55.381 --> 00:29:56.586
People<00:29:55.558> still<00:29:55.719> respect<00:29:56.024> the<00:29:56.104> newspaper.

00:29:57.485 --> 00:30:01.274
So<00:29:58.609> the—<00:29:59.331> I<00:29:59.556> love<00:29:59.668> that<00:29:59.797> example<00:30:00.134> because<00:30:00.519> what<00:30:00.680> had<00:30:00.776> changed?

00:30:01.740 --> 00:30:03.490
Well,<00:30:01.900> regulation<00:30:02.462> had<00:30:02.623> changed<00:30:02.944> by<00:30:03.104> that<00:30:03.201> point.

00:30:03.570 --> 00:30:06.396
Newspapers<00:30:03.971> were<00:30:04.003> not<00:30:04.228> taxed<00:30:04.549> based<00:30:04.854> on<00:30:05.160> you<00:30:05.288> know,<00:30:05.593> the<00:30:05.673> size<00:30:05.930> of<00:30:05.978> the<00:30:06.075> paper.

00:30:07.038 --> 00:30:08.419
Consumer<00:30:07.439> behavior<00:30:07.921> had<00:30:08.082> changed.

00:30:08.467 --> 00:30:09.254
Technology<00:30:08.965> had<00:30:09.045> changed.

00:30:09.302 --> 00:30:26.883
A<00:30:09.446> million<00:30:09.752> things<00:30:09.912> had<00:30:09.992> changed<00:30:10.474> where<00:30:11.213> the<00:30:12.096> smart<00:30:12.882> idea,<00:30:13.782> um,<00:30:14.022> if<00:30:14.183> you<00:30:14.344> know,<00:30:14.729> if<00:30:15.034> you<00:30:15.291> consider<00:30:15.564> saving<00:30:15.869> money<00:30:16.029> on<00:30:16.174> taxes<00:30:16.656> for<00:30:16.768> a<00:30:16.832> newspaper<00:30:17.234> company,<00:30:17.635> the<00:30:17.699> smart<00:30:17.956> idea,<00:30:18.197> but<00:30:18.277> the<00:30:18.358> smart<00:30:18.759> solution<00:30:19.160> to<00:30:19.225> that<00:30:19.321> problem<00:30:20.766> was<00:30:21.167> the<00:30:21.328> best<00:30:21.553> thing<00:30:21.649> they<00:30:21.729> could<00:30:21.890> come<00:30:22.050> up<00:30:22.195> with<00:30:22.516> at<00:30:22.693> the<00:30:22.853> time,<00:30:23.335> given<00:30:23.576> the<00:30:23.656> circumstances<00:30:24.523> and<00:30:24.603> the<00:30:24.684> technology<00:30:25.342> and<00:30:25.486> the<00:30:25.583> culture<00:30:26.048> and<00:30:26.145> the<00:30:26.225> people<00:30:26.466> involved.

00:30:27.590 --> 00:30:30.865
And<00:30:27.670> that<00:30:27.831> is<00:30:27.975> not<00:30:28.216> the<00:30:28.296> solution<00:30:28.617> you'd<00:30:28.714> come<00:30:28.939> up<00:30:29.099> with<00:30:29.212> today<00:30:29.822> if<00:30:29.902> you<00:30:29.966> were<00:30:29.998> starting<00:30:30.255> a<00:30:30.287> newspaper<00:30:30.673> company.

00:30:30.962 --> 00:30:31.411
From<00:30:31.122> scratch.

00:30:31.667 --> 00:30:35.581
You<00:30:32.068> wouldn't<00:30:32.261> say,<00:30:32.469> let's<00:30:32.630> use<00:30:32.806> the<00:30:32.886> most<00:30:33.063> expensive<00:30:33.608> printers<00:30:33.993> and<00:30:34.041> the<00:30:34.233> most<00:30:34.394> giantest<00:30:34.811> paper<00:30:35.196> possible.

00:30:36.030 --> 00:30:37.345
Say,<00:30:36.174> let's<00:30:36.334> use<00:30:36.415> standard<00:30:36.896> sizes.

00:30:38.355 --> 00:30:46.679
So<00:30:39.125> lateral<00:30:39.526> thinking<00:30:40.104> in<00:30:40.248> part<00:30:40.585> is<00:30:40.681> about<00:30:41.306> looking<00:30:41.563> at<00:30:41.627> problems<00:30:42.092> that<00:30:42.253> way,<00:30:42.445> saying<00:30:43.472> the<00:30:43.552> current<00:30:43.792> solutions,<00:30:44.338> current<00:30:44.578> way<00:30:44.755> that<00:30:44.915> everyone<00:30:45.172> is<00:30:45.316> looking<00:30:45.557> at<00:30:45.637> this<00:30:45.781> problem,<00:30:46.599> why?

00:30:47.946 --> 00:30:49.261
And<00:30:48.043> can<00:30:48.283> we<00:30:48.427> look<00:30:48.604> at<00:30:48.700> it<00:30:48.844> a<00:30:48.861> different<00:30:49.165> way?

00:30:49.326 --> 00:30:50.849
Can<00:30:49.470> we<00:30:49.630> go<00:30:49.807> back<00:30:50.128> further<00:30:50.448> in<00:30:50.609> time?

00:30:50.929 --> 00:30:54.827
Can<00:30:51.010> we<00:30:51.106> approach<00:30:51.411> this<00:30:51.731> from<00:30:51.972> an<00:30:52.116> angle<00:30:52.517> that<00:30:52.678> doesn't<00:30:52.934> have<00:30:53.239> the<00:30:53.335> baggage<00:30:53.977> of<00:30:54.057> the<00:30:54.201> current<00:30:54.458> solution?

00:30:55.805 --> 00:31:01.774
And,<00:30:57.008> and<00:30:57.281> if<00:30:57.409> you<00:30:57.505> look<00:30:57.601> at<00:30:57.666> problems<00:30:57.970> that<00:30:58.067> way,<00:30:58.323> sometimes<00:30:58.852> really<00:30:59.173> elegant<00:30:59.414> solutions<00:30:59.895> just<00:31:00.778> are<00:31:00.955> there<00:31:01.196> in<00:31:01.340> front<00:31:01.533> of<00:31:01.661> you.

00:31:02.545 --> 00:31:09.998
And,<00:31:02.946> you<00:31:02.979> know,<00:31:03.685> with<00:31:03.830> harder<00:31:04.087> problems,<00:31:04.569> sometimes<00:31:05.067> it's<00:31:05.211> just<00:31:05.388> a<00:31:05.532> better<00:31:05.838> place<00:31:06.095> to<00:31:06.191> start<00:31:06.817> to<00:31:06.962> get<00:31:07.139> a<00:31:07.219> team<00:31:07.380> of<00:31:07.460> people<00:31:07.861> to<00:31:08.729> think<00:31:08.905> differently<00:31:09.307> about<00:31:09.548> the<00:31:09.628> solution.

00:31:10.110 --> 00:31:33.359
And<00:31:11.058> I<00:31:11.154> think<00:31:11.395> the<00:31:11.475> way<00:31:11.636> that<00:31:11.781> it<00:31:11.861> comes<00:31:12.102> back<00:31:12.359> around<00:31:12.600> to<00:31:12.776> the<00:31:12.937> sort<00:31:13.082> of<00:31:13.146> the<00:31:13.242> end<00:31:13.323> of<00:31:13.387> your<00:31:13.483> question,<00:31:13.788> the<00:31:13.869> way<00:31:13.965> this<00:31:14.110> has<00:31:14.286> to<00:31:14.318> do<00:31:14.367> with<00:31:14.527> teamwork,<00:31:15.732> the<00:31:15.892> best<00:31:16.294> way<00:31:16.599> to<00:31:17.740> inject<00:31:18.302> lateral<00:31:18.687> thinking<00:31:19.169> into<00:31:19.924> a<00:31:20.229> problem-solving<00:31:20.856> process<00:31:21.530> is<00:31:21.611> to<00:31:21.755> inject<00:31:22.398> people<00:31:22.944> who<00:31:23.120> see<00:31:23.442> the<00:31:23.522> problem<00:31:24.309> from<00:31:24.486> a<00:31:24.502> different<00:31:25.289> perspective<00:31:25.755> than<00:31:26.332> So,<00:31:26.717> if<00:31:26.878> you<00:31:27.038> and<00:31:27.119> your<00:31:27.215> team<00:31:27.520> all<00:31:27.600> have<00:31:27.760> these<00:31:27.937> assumptions<00:31:28.402> that<00:31:28.498> like<00:31:28.659> people<00:31:29.381> respect<00:31:29.766> the<00:31:29.846> big<00:31:30.006> newspaper<00:31:30.664> and<00:31:30.728> someone<00:31:30.985> walks<00:31:31.290> in<00:31:31.466> and<00:31:31.611> is<00:31:31.707> like,<00:31:32.413> "I<00:31:32.445> don't<00:31:32.589> have<00:31:32.734> that<00:31:32.910> assumption.

00:31:33.616 --> 00:31:40.771
Why<00:31:33.792> is<00:31:33.937> the<00:31:34.017> newspaper<00:31:34.434> big?"<00:31:35.717> That<00:31:36.102> is<00:31:36.215> a<00:31:36.279> way<00:31:36.439> to<00:31:36.520> kick<00:31:36.760> you<00:31:36.985> out<00:31:37.145> of<00:31:37.242> your<00:31:37.803> sort<00:31:37.947> of<00:31:38.028> frame<00:31:38.204> of<00:31:38.348> thinking<00:31:38.621> and<00:31:38.782> start<00:31:38.990> to<00:31:39.054> help<00:31:39.231> you<00:31:39.808> think<00:31:39.969> outside<00:31:40.290> the<00:31:40.370> box.

00:31:41.076 --> 00:31:44.429
So,<00:31:41.573> yeah,<00:31:41.814> I've<00:31:42.151> done<00:31:42.295> a<00:31:42.311> lot<00:31:42.471> of<00:31:42.520> work<00:31:42.696> over<00:31:42.792> the<00:31:42.921> years<00:31:43.177> on<00:31:43.899> lateral<00:31:44.220> thinking.

00:31:44.541 --> 00:31:47.766
How<00:31:44.637> do<00:31:44.766> we<00:31:44.862> trick<00:31:45.038> ourselves<00:31:45.423> into<00:31:45.648> thinking<00:31:46.723> differently<00:31:47.188> than<00:31:47.348> we<00:31:47.493> think?

00:31:48.054 --> 00:31:55.899
And<00:31:48.151> there's<00:31:48.279> a<00:31:48.311> lot<00:31:48.471> of<00:31:48.568> tactics,<00:31:49.113> but<00:31:49.274> the<00:31:49.434> best<00:31:49.755> one<00:31:50.220> is<00:31:51.102> other<00:31:51.279> people<00:31:51.600> are<00:31:51.760> the,<00:31:52.225> you<00:31:52.258> know,<00:31:52.482> showing<00:31:52.819> us<00:31:52.963> what<00:31:53.124> we<00:31:53.429> don't<00:31:53.621> see<00:31:53.766> because<00:31:54.086> we<00:31:54.552> make<00:31:54.728> assumptions<00:31:55.193> we<00:31:55.225> don't<00:31:55.418> even<00:31:55.675> realize.

00:31:57.038 --> 00:31:58.338
You've<00:31:57.199> written<00:31:57.391> a<00:31:57.455> number<00:31:57.760> of<00:31:57.856> books.

00:31:58.723 --> 00:32:04.675
Um,<00:31:59.766> and,<00:32:00.006> and<00:32:00.247> I<00:32:00.407> wonder<00:32:00.664> like<00:32:00.969> what,<00:32:01.707> at<00:32:01.867> what<00:32:02.108> point<00:32:02.429> do<00:32:02.733> you,<00:32:03.086> I'm<00:32:03.215> gonna<00:32:03.311> ask<00:32:03.471> you<00:32:03.552> a<00:32:03.616> couple<00:32:03.873> book<00:32:04.097> questions<00:32:04.498> here.

00:32:05.798 --> 00:32:13.867
Like<00:32:06.038> when<00:32:06.263> do<00:32:06.295> you<00:32:06.504> realize<00:32:06.824> you<00:32:06.905> have<00:32:07.081> like<00:32:07.258> an<00:32:07.386> idea<00:32:07.883> or<00:32:08.188> a<00:32:08.220> subject<00:32:08.830> that<00:32:08.910> you<00:32:09.006> want<00:32:09.151> to<00:32:09.231> go<00:32:09.391> deep<00:32:09.648> on<00:32:09.889> that's<00:32:10.193> worthy<00:32:10.995> of<00:32:11.268> a<00:32:11.413> book<00:32:11.974> versus<00:32:12.359> like<00:32:12.536> a<00:32:12.616> blog<00:32:12.937> post<00:32:13.193> or<00:32:13.274> something<00:32:13.562> like<00:32:13.723> that?

00:32:15.086 --> 00:32:18.455
Yeah,<00:32:15.568> my<00:32:15.744> answer<00:32:15.985> now<00:32:16.386> is<00:32:16.546> different<00:32:16.931> than<00:32:17.268> it<00:32:17.348> was<00:32:17.573> when<00:32:17.653> I<00:32:17.733> wrote<00:32:17.846> my<00:32:17.990> first<00:32:18.231> book.

00:32:18.552 --> 00:32:20.060
My<00:32:18.696> first<00:32:18.872> book<00:32:19.177> was,<00:32:19.530> it<00:32:19.675> was<00:32:19.835> a<00:32:19.915> goal.

00:32:20.252 --> 00:32:22.129
I<00:32:20.284> wanna<00:32:20.413> write<00:32:20.573> a<00:32:20.637> book<00:32:21.343> by<00:32:21.439> the<00:32:21.503> time<00:32:21.648> I'm<00:32:21.840> 30.

00:32:22.787 --> 00:32:24.698
And,<00:32:23.510> you<00:32:23.783> know,<00:32:23.927> I<00:32:24.008> was<00:32:24.168> a<00:32:24.232> journalist.

00:32:24.794 --> 00:32:25.629
I'd<00:32:24.891> written<00:32:25.115> a<00:32:25.132> lot<00:32:25.276> of<00:32:25.308> stuff.

00:32:25.774 --> 00:32:26.673
It<00:32:25.934> was<00:32:26.015> sort<00:32:26.175> of<00:32:26.207> the<00:32:26.320> level<00:32:26.577> up.

00:32:26.737 --> 00:32:28.873
I've<00:32:26.834> done<00:32:27.203> big<00:32:27.444> feature<00:32:27.861> articles<00:32:28.263> in<00:32:28.359> magazines.

00:32:29.065 --> 00:32:30.013
Now<00:32:29.226> I<00:32:29.306> want<00:32:29.451> to<00:32:29.531> do<00:32:29.627> a<00:32:29.772> book.

00:32:30.591 --> 00:32:40.690
And<00:32:30.687> so<00:32:30.832> for<00:32:30.992> that,<00:32:31.378> there<00:32:31.538> was<00:32:31.779> this<00:32:32.020> process<00:32:32.662> of<00:32:32.823> like,<00:32:33.063> what<00:32:33.160> do<00:32:33.304> I<00:32:33.465> have<00:32:34.043> that<00:32:34.509> I—<00:32:35.327> as<00:32:35.488> a<00:32:35.552> foundation<00:32:36.130> for,<00:32:36.451> you<00:32:36.548> know,<00:32:36.628> a<00:32:36.692> topic<00:32:37.174> I<00:32:37.335> want<00:32:37.479> to<00:32:37.672> spend<00:32:37.897> a<00:32:37.913> lot<00:32:38.073> of<00:32:38.137> time<00:32:38.523> on<00:32:38.683> that<00:32:38.780> I<00:32:38.924> think<00:32:39.020> could,<00:32:39.647> you<00:32:39.743> know,<00:32:39.968> be<00:32:40.128> worth<00:32:40.369> a<00:32:40.466> book.

00:32:41.493 --> 00:32:47.386
And,<00:32:42.537> and<00:32:42.633> that<00:32:42.778> was<00:32:42.938> the<00:32:42.970> lateral<00:32:43.340> thinking<00:32:43.661> thing,<00:32:43.918> which<00:32:44.640> is<00:32:44.801> cool<00:32:45.042> because<00:32:45.379> it's<00:32:45.588> a<00:32:45.620> topic<00:32:46.005> that,<00:32:46.246> you<00:32:46.326> know,<00:32:46.471> has<00:32:46.647> legs<00:32:47.033> forever.

00:32:48.494 --> 00:32:50.421
I<00:32:48.638> would<00:32:48.799> say<00:32:49.040> I<00:32:49.120> would<00:32:49.216> not<00:32:49.313> write<00:32:49.538> that<00:32:49.618> book<00:32:49.843> the<00:32:49.923> same<00:32:50.260> now.

00:32:51.047 --> 00:33:13.477
I<00:32:51.721> think,<00:32:52.026> you<00:32:52.090> know,<00:32:52.492> there's<00:32:52.893> some<00:32:52.990> naïveté<00:32:53.552> to<00:32:53.776> my<00:32:53.937> approach,<00:32:54.997> but<00:32:55.398> by<00:32:55.559> the<00:32:55.639> time<00:32:55.815> I<00:32:55.880> got<00:32:56.024> to<00:32:56.120> my<00:32:56.747> third<00:32:56.988> book,<00:32:57.662> my<00:32:57.887> approach<00:32:58.433> very<00:32:58.689> much<00:32:59.011> was,<00:33:00.937> this<00:33:01.178> is<00:33:01.258> a<00:33:01.339> topic<00:33:01.820> that<00:33:01.965> I've<00:33:02.142> been<00:33:02.366> writing<00:33:02.703> about<00:33:03.201> or<00:33:03.282> speaking<00:33:03.827> about<00:33:04.550> and<00:33:05.192> obsessed<00:33:05.674> with<00:33:05.834> learning<00:33:06.156> about<00:33:06.477> for<00:33:06.621> so<00:33:07.023> long<00:33:07.745> that<00:33:07.809> I'm<00:33:07.922> starting<00:33:08.163> to<00:33:08.259> see<00:33:08.484> patterns<00:33:09.608> that<00:33:09.913> I'm<00:33:09.993> not<00:33:10.234> finding<00:33:11.053> in<00:33:11.599> books<00:33:11.839> out<00:33:12.016> there,<00:33:12.241> that<00:33:12.289> I'm<00:33:12.417> not<00:33:12.562> finding<00:33:12.819> in<00:33:12.899> other<00:33:13.060> people's<00:33:13.365> work.

00:33:14.116 --> 00:33:27.459
And<00:33:14.441> part<00:33:14.668> of<00:33:14.765> it<00:33:14.928> too<00:33:15.155> was,<00:33:15.544> you<00:33:16.209> know,<00:33:16.306> with<00:33:16.955> writing<00:33:17.280> business<00:33:17.669> books<00:33:17.848> in<00:33:17.912> particular<00:33:18.383> or<00:33:18.659> nonfiction,<00:33:20.127> a<00:33:20.143> lot<00:33:20.482> of<00:33:20.692> how<00:33:20.935> you<00:33:21.597> make,<00:33:22.630> you<00:33:22.663> know,<00:33:23.518> money<00:33:23.777> from<00:33:24.084> it,<00:33:24.245> a<00:33:24.261> lot<00:33:24.423> of<00:33:24.487> how<00:33:24.649> you<00:33:24.730> get<00:33:24.810> exposure<00:33:25.392> for<00:33:25.569> it,<00:33:25.699> how<00:33:25.795> you<00:33:25.860> get<00:33:25.941> more<00:33:26.183> readers<00:33:26.441> for<00:33:26.538> it<00:33:26.619> is<00:33:26.764> through<00:33:26.926> public<00:33:27.184> speaking.

00:33:28.268 --> 00:33:35.157
And<00:33:28.366> so<00:33:28.595> I<00:33:28.759> also<00:33:29.021> had<00:33:29.250> this<00:33:29.496> filter<00:33:29.987> of<00:33:30.658> what<00:33:30.855> basically<00:33:33.007> like<00:33:33.184> here's<00:33:33.411> this<00:33:33.573> thing<00:33:33.750> that<00:33:33.896> has<00:33:33.993> been<00:33:34.624> on<00:33:34.737> my<00:33:34.882> mind.

00:33:35.206 --> 00:33:37.049
I've<00:33:35.287> been<00:33:35.513> chipping<00:33:35.756> away<00:33:35.998> at<00:33:36.095> this<00:33:36.726> marble.

00:33:37.114 --> 00:33:42.256
I<00:33:37.146> think<00:33:37.308> there's<00:33:37.470> a<00:33:37.534> statue<00:33:37.971> in<00:33:38.100> here<00:33:38.844> that<00:33:39.006> would<00:33:39.151> make<00:33:39.329> a<00:33:39.410> great<00:33:39.717> book<00:33:40.041> that<00:33:40.203> I<00:33:40.542> would<00:33:40.849> love<00:33:41.108> to,<00:33:41.577> you<00:33:41.674> know,<00:33:41.755> to<00:33:41.917> complete.

00:33:43.243 --> 00:33:48.312
Is<00:33:43.404> this<00:33:43.564> something<00:33:44.045> that<00:33:44.847> I<00:33:44.927> could<00:33:45.088> talk<00:33:45.489> about<00:33:45.745> in<00:33:45.874> front<00:33:45.986> of<00:33:46.114> big<00:33:46.275> audiences<00:33:46.772> to<00:33:46.916> expose<00:33:47.317> lots<00:33:47.510> of<00:33:47.574> people<00:33:47.815> to<00:33:47.895> these<00:33:48.119> ideas?

00:33:48.360 --> 00:33:53.027
Because<00:33:48.616> more<00:33:48.761> people<00:33:48.921> will<00:33:49.017> buy<00:33:49.178> the<00:33:49.258> book<00:33:49.418> that<00:33:49.595> way,<00:33:50.686> and<00:33:50.782> speaking<00:33:51.087> gigs,<00:33:51.488> you<00:33:51.520> know,<00:33:51.664> pay<00:33:51.824> better<00:33:52.129> than<00:33:52.306> books<00:33:52.546> do<00:33:52.707> anyway.

00:33:53.733 --> 00:33:55.048
Um,<00:33:53.926> so<00:33:54.070> that<00:33:54.295> was<00:33:54.487> a<00:33:54.551> filter.

00:33:55.193 --> 00:34:08.795
And<00:33:55.289> so,<00:33:55.899> you<00:33:55.931> know,<00:33:56.059> with<00:33:56.235> Dream<00:33:56.476> Teams,<00:33:57.278> that<00:33:57.374> was<00:33:57.599> very<00:33:57.695> much<00:33:57.904> the<00:33:58.000> process<00:33:58.417> of<00:33:58.545> like,<00:33:58.786> I<00:33:58.866> have<00:33:59.187> all<00:33:59.299> of<00:33:59.427> this<00:33:59.524> stuff,<00:34:00.486> I've<00:34:00.743> seen<00:34:00.983> these<00:34:01.208> patterns,<00:34:02.314> I,<00:34:02.812> I<00:34:03.052> have<00:34:03.373> been<00:34:03.533> doing<00:34:03.774> these<00:34:03.886> speeches<00:34:04.239> where<00:34:04.319> I'm<00:34:04.480> working<00:34:04.801> in<00:34:04.897> material<00:34:05.538> that<00:34:05.683> I'm<00:34:05.859> thinking<00:34:06.020> about<00:34:06.581> putting<00:34:06.822> into<00:34:07.062> this<00:34:07.303> book,<00:34:08.089> and<00:34:08.185> it's<00:34:08.329> resonating.

00:34:08.843 --> 00:34:10.671
Some<00:34:09.051> of<00:34:09.147> it's<00:34:09.292> not,<00:34:09.532> so<00:34:09.564> I'm<00:34:09.661> going<00:34:09.725> to<00:34:09.789> take<00:34:10.014> a<00:34:10.046> different<00:34:10.334> angle.

00:34:11.330 --> 00:34:12.165
So<00:34:11.458> that<00:34:11.571> was<00:34:11.715> the<00:34:11.796> process.

00:34:12.422 --> 00:34:23.251
I'll<00:34:12.519> say<00:34:12.760> that<00:34:12.904> I<00:34:12.985> have<00:34:13.097> another<00:34:13.386> book<00:34:13.483> coming<00:34:13.788> out,<00:34:14.125> which<00:34:14.591> is<00:34:15.828> None<00:34:16.150> of<00:34:16.278> This<00:34:16.519> Advice<00:34:16.857> Is<00:34:17.001> Relevant,<00:34:17.419> which<00:34:17.660> my<00:34:17.821> wife<00:34:18.062> and<00:34:18.142> I<00:34:18.383> during<00:34:18.624> the<00:34:18.704> pandemic<00:34:19.186> co-wrote<00:34:19.893> a<00:34:19.990> middle<00:34:20.231> grade<00:34:20.472> novel<00:34:20.793> about<00:34:21.500> two<00:34:21.661> kids<00:34:21.982> going<00:34:22.159> on<00:34:22.239> an<00:34:22.384> adventure<00:34:22.801> in<00:34:22.882> space.

00:34:24.151 --> 00:34:25.918
And<00:34:24.199> I'm<00:34:24.328> never<00:34:24.505> going<00:34:24.601> to<00:34:24.665> give<00:34:24.810> a<00:34:24.826> speaking<00:34:25.195> gig<00:34:25.356> about<00:34:25.533> that<00:34:25.758> book.

00:34:26.175 --> 00:34:34.964
And<00:34:26.336> it<00:34:26.722> was—<00:34:28.248> but,<00:34:28.521> you<00:34:28.827> know,<00:34:29.148> we<00:34:29.694> did<00:34:29.855> get<00:34:30.015> a<00:34:30.032> lot<00:34:30.273> of,<00:34:31.317> of<00:34:31.478> kids,<00:34:32.024> you<00:34:32.056> know,<00:34:32.201> 10<00:34:32.442> to<00:34:32.522> 12-year-old<00:34:33.068> kids<00:34:33.325> and<00:34:33.470> their<00:34:33.566> parents<00:34:33.968> to<00:34:34.113> read<00:34:34.305> early<00:34:34.530> drafts.

00:34:35.157 --> 00:34:42.321
And<00:34:35.253> so<00:34:35.414> we're,<00:34:35.719> you<00:34:35.751> know,<00:34:35.880> we're<00:34:36.041> growing<00:34:36.362> a<00:34:36.458> little<00:34:36.715> bit<00:34:36.860> of<00:34:37.005> a<00:34:37.503> an<00:34:37.727> army<00:34:38.049> of,<00:34:38.306> um,<00:34:38.547> you<00:34:39.028> know,<00:34:39.590> of<00:34:39.735> people<00:34:39.992> who<00:34:40.233> hopefully<00:34:40.634> will<00:34:40.811> spread<00:34:41.116> the<00:34:41.261> word<00:34:41.421> about<00:34:41.662> it<00:34:41.743> when<00:34:41.839> it<00:34:41.919> comes<00:34:42.224> out.

00:34:42.401 --> 00:34:58.671
But<00:34:42.867> totally<00:34:43.124> different<00:34:43.365> thing<00:34:43.606> when<00:34:43.686> you're<00:34:43.782> dealing<00:34:44.071> with<00:34:44.232> fiction,<00:34:45.196> um,<00:34:45.597> because<00:34:45.854> the<00:34:46.015> way<00:34:46.175> fiction<00:34:46.593> spreads<00:34:46.898> is<00:34:47.059> by<00:34:47.284> word<00:34:47.460> of<00:34:47.541> mouth,<00:34:48.022> and<00:34:48.167> the<00:34:48.247> way<00:34:48.424> a<00:34:48.440> lot<00:34:48.729> of<00:34:49.147> business<00:34:49.468> ideas<00:34:49.741> spread<00:34:50.351> are<00:34:50.994> through<00:34:51.476> interviews<00:34:51.797> like<00:34:51.957> this—<00:34:52.343> thank<00:34:52.503> you<00:34:52.600> for<00:34:52.744> asking<00:34:52.985> about<00:34:53.387> a<00:34:53.564> book—<00:34:54.110> um,<00:34:54.768> or<00:34:54.929> through<00:34:55.250> public<00:34:55.555> speaking,<00:34:56.438> um,<00:34:57.081> through<00:34:57.258> PR,<00:34:57.980> that<00:34:58.157> sort<00:34:58.382> of<00:34:58.526> thing.

00:34:58.799 --> 00:35:06.939
So<00:34:59.345> that<00:34:59.570> is<00:34:59.731> a<00:34:59.811> factor<00:35:00.309> when<00:35:00.470> writing<00:35:00.711> a<00:35:00.727> nonfiction<00:35:01.353> book,<00:35:01.578> is,<00:35:01.931> is<00:35:02.060> this<00:35:02.172> going<00:35:02.269> to<00:35:02.301> be<00:35:02.381> something<00:35:02.654> that<00:35:02.799> inherently<00:35:03.983> I<00:35:04.003> can<00:35:04.227> have<00:35:04.564> a<00:35:04.741> stage<00:35:05.527> where<00:35:05.848> I<00:35:05.912> can<00:35:06.073> talk<00:35:06.265> about<00:35:06.410> these<00:35:06.651> ideas.

00:35:08.015 --> 00:35:17.611
I<00:35:08.095> imagine<00:35:08.400> there<00:35:08.464> are<00:35:08.496> some<00:35:08.721> CEOs<00:35:09.282> or<00:35:09.379> leaders<00:35:09.684> listening<00:35:09.956> to<00:35:10.020> this<00:35:10.197> or<00:35:10.325> watching<00:35:10.662> this<00:35:11.128> right<00:35:11.304> now<00:35:11.625> who<00:35:12.171> have<00:35:12.412> either<00:35:12.909> written<00:35:13.134> a<00:35:13.230> book<00:35:13.615> or<00:35:13.872> would<00:35:14.032> like<00:35:14.257> to<00:35:14.337> write<00:35:14.514> a<00:35:14.594> book<00:35:16.038> kind<00:35:16.263> of<00:35:16.343> for<00:35:16.841> credibility.

00:35:17.884 --> 00:35:24.816
There's<00:35:18.333> something<00:35:18.590> about<00:35:18.911> like,<00:35:19.151> I've<00:35:19.392> written<00:35:19.649> a<00:35:19.809> book,<00:35:20.772> having<00:35:21.093> that<00:35:21.478> on<00:35:21.591> the<00:35:21.703> mantle<00:35:22.216> that<00:35:23.998> is<00:35:24.142> kind<00:35:24.367> of<00:35:24.463> interesting.

00:35:24.928 --> 00:35:30.930
How<00:35:25.265> do<00:35:25.651> you—<00:35:27.111> by<00:35:27.255> the<00:35:27.352> way,<00:35:27.512> I<00:35:27.592> think<00:35:27.753> most<00:35:28.138> of<00:35:28.796> that,<00:35:29.020> when<00:35:29.117> your<00:35:29.261> motivation<00:35:29.743> is<00:35:29.903> that,<00:35:30.160> it's<00:35:30.272> not<00:35:30.400> going<00:35:30.513> to<00:35:30.561> be<00:35:30.721> good.

00:35:31.203 --> 00:35:33.915
Have<00:35:31.444> a<00:35:31.684> real<00:35:32.551> motivation<00:35:33.193> behind<00:35:33.835> it.

00:35:34.172 --> 00:35:38.697
Yeah,<00:35:34.412> it's<00:35:34.509> hard<00:35:34.717> for<00:35:34.846> that<00:35:35.038> to<00:35:35.135> be<00:35:35.295> like,<00:35:36.322> um,<00:35:36.659> that's<00:35:36.884> why<00:35:36.980> they<00:35:37.125> hire<00:35:37.381> ghostwriters<00:35:38.023> and<00:35:38.168> things<00:35:38.408> like<00:35:38.569> that.

00:35:38.826 --> 00:35:46.144
But,<00:35:38.986> but<00:35:39.147> for<00:35:39.291> those<00:35:39.468> who<00:35:39.564> like<00:35:39.724> are<00:35:39.869> really<00:35:40.029> like<00:35:40.190> going<00:35:40.495> after<00:35:40.912> it<00:35:41.217> and<00:35:42.035> want<00:35:42.180> to<00:35:42.260> write<00:35:42.421> a<00:35:42.437> book<00:35:42.677> and<00:35:43.063> want<00:35:43.223> to<00:35:43.319> do<00:35:43.624> kind<00:35:43.785> of<00:35:43.865> what<00:35:43.961> you've<00:35:44.106> done,<00:35:44.282> how<00:35:44.523> do<00:35:44.667> they,<00:35:45.229> uh,<00:35:45.566> promote<00:35:46.112> it?

00:35:46.208 --> 00:35:47.524
Like,<00:35:46.369> how<00:35:46.513> do<00:35:46.593> you<00:35:46.754> get<00:35:46.930> the<00:35:47.155> word<00:35:47.412> out?

00:35:47.717 --> 00:36:00.427
You<00:35:47.781> mentioned<00:35:48.118> a<00:35:48.198> little<00:35:48.375> bit<00:35:48.535> around<00:35:48.856> like<00:35:49.017> the<00:35:49.097> public<00:35:49.418> speaking,<00:35:50.541> but<00:35:50.686> I<00:35:50.782> imagine<00:35:51.183> the<00:35:51.328> PR<00:35:52.050> and<00:35:52.146> like<00:35:52.307> trying<00:35:52.628> to<00:35:53.334> hawk<00:35:53.671> a<00:35:53.751> book,<00:35:54.794> it<00:35:55.019> gets<00:35:55.276> pretty<00:35:55.516> difficult<00:35:56.158> and<00:35:56.319> the<00:35:56.479> rewards<00:35:57.025> are<00:35:57.121> not—<00:35:57.603> the<00:35:57.683> financial<00:35:58.084> rewards<00:35:58.549> may<00:35:58.646> not<00:35:58.806> be<00:35:59.031> like<00:35:59.224> extremely<00:36:00.090> great.

00:36:01.919 --> 00:36:21.427
Oh,<00:36:01.951> I<00:36:02.096> mean,<00:36:02.577> yeah,<00:36:03.058> it's<00:36:03.219> an<00:36:03.299> investment<00:36:04.021> either<00:36:04.486> in<00:36:05.208> hard<00:36:05.464> money—<00:36:05.689> you're<00:36:05.850> hiring<00:36:06.267> PR<00:36:06.571> people,<00:36:07.069> you're,<00:36:07.550> you<00:36:07.598> know,<00:36:08.577> all<00:36:08.673> of<00:36:08.753> the<00:36:08.898> things<00:36:09.090> you're<00:36:09.234> doing,<00:36:09.475> marketing<00:36:09.796> campaigns,<00:36:11.063> um,<00:36:11.384> or,<00:36:11.946> and/or,<00:36:12.748> um,<00:36:13.069> you<00:36:13.149> know,<00:36:13.470> you<00:36:13.566> look<00:36:13.726> at<00:36:13.790> the<00:36:13.951> hourly<00:36:14.288> rate<00:36:14.528> for<00:36:14.994> all<00:36:15.106> of<00:36:15.250> the<00:36:15.330> shoe<00:36:15.635> leather<00:36:15.892> that<00:36:16.052> you<00:36:16.213> personally<00:36:16.678> put<00:36:16.935> in,<00:36:17.801> uh,<00:36:18.042> in<00:36:18.298> promoting<00:36:18.699> a<00:36:18.780> book,<00:36:19.181> and,<00:36:19.421> you<00:36:19.501> know,<00:36:19.822> your<00:36:19.919> effective<00:36:20.304> hourly<00:36:20.624> rate<00:36:20.865> is<00:36:21.106> so<00:36:21.266> low.

00:36:21.667 --> 00:36:23.672
So<00:36:21.972> I,<00:36:22.148> I<00:36:22.229> don't<00:36:22.453> think<00:36:22.630> it<00:36:22.710> should<00:36:22.806> be<00:36:22.935> looked<00:36:23.175> at<00:36:23.336> that<00:36:23.496> way.

00:36:24.234 --> 00:36:33.589
I<00:36:24.314> do<00:36:24.539> think<00:36:24.699> there's<00:36:24.860> some<00:36:25.020> value<00:36:25.501> in<00:36:25.662> thinking<00:36:25.918> of,<00:36:26.223> you<00:36:26.400> know,<00:36:26.704> a<00:36:27.390> nonfiction<00:36:27.985> book<00:36:28.291> that<00:36:28.452> shows<00:36:28.710> your<00:36:28.855> expertise<00:36:29.370> as<00:36:29.515> a<00:36:29.595> calling<00:36:29.982> card<00:36:30.223> that<00:36:30.320> can<00:36:30.465> help<00:36:30.626> you<00:36:30.706> with<00:36:30.867> consulting<00:36:31.689> and<00:36:31.834> all<00:36:32.011> that,<00:36:32.317> like,<00:36:32.494> that<00:36:32.719> does<00:36:32.896> convey<00:36:33.154> something.

00:36:34.088 --> 00:36:39.156
It<00:36:34.168> doesn't<00:36:34.426> convey<00:36:34.990> that<00:36:35.456> if<00:36:35.698> people<00:36:36.020> open<00:36:36.197> the<00:36:36.278> book<00:36:36.519> and<00:36:36.680> it's<00:36:37.003> bad<00:36:37.586> or<00:36:37.666> it's<00:36:37.812> cliché<00:36:38.379> or<00:36:38.541> it's<00:36:38.783> garbage.

00:36:41.147 --> 00:36:44.416
So,<00:36:41.438> you<00:36:41.470> know,<00:36:41.616> it<00:36:41.713> has<00:36:41.940> to<00:36:42.037> be<00:36:42.247> good,<00:36:42.976> and<00:36:43.138> people<00:36:43.316> can't<00:36:43.559> tell<00:36:43.656> if<00:36:43.785> there's<00:36:43.963> a<00:36:44.028> ghostwriter.

00:36:44.465 --> 00:36:45.469
So<00:36:44.530> that<00:36:44.692> is<00:36:44.934> an<00:36:45.080> option.

00:36:47.847 --> 00:36:49.339
I'm<00:36:48.269> a<00:36:48.334> little<00:36:48.496> more<00:36:48.690> of<00:36:48.772> a<00:36:48.918> purist.

00:36:49.404 --> 00:36:51.043
I<00:36:49.420> don't—<00:36:49.664> I<00:36:49.729> mean,<00:36:49.972> I<00:36:50.118> have<00:36:50.280> friends<00:36:50.459> who<00:36:50.540> are<00:36:50.621> ghostwriters.

00:36:51.091 --> 00:36:53.508
I<00:36:51.107> think<00:36:51.270> that's<00:36:51.578> fine<00:36:51.821> if<00:36:51.919> you<00:36:52.016> have<00:36:52.308> ideas<00:36:52.713> that<00:36:52.811> are<00:36:52.973> worth<00:36:53.298> reading.

00:36:54.012 --> 00:36:56.898
And<00:36:54.076> someone<00:36:54.252> helps<00:36:54.477> you<00:36:54.573> write<00:36:54.798> those,<00:36:55.519> communicate<00:36:55.936> those,<00:36:56.321> I<00:36:56.337> think<00:36:56.497> that's<00:36:56.658> great.

00:36:58.133 --> 00:36:59.207
So,<00:36:58.341> that's<00:36:58.983> fine.

00:36:59.288 --> 00:37:01.965
For<00:36:59.368> me,<00:36:59.849> where<00:37:00.009> I<00:37:00.105> am<00:37:00.266> a<00:37:00.330> writer,<00:37:00.907> part<00:37:01.084> of<00:37:01.164> it<00:37:01.244> is<00:37:01.468> the<00:37:01.613> thrill<00:37:01.789> of<00:37:01.885> it.

00:37:02.014 --> 00:37:02.607
I<00:37:02.174> love<00:37:02.350> writing.

00:37:02.687 --> 00:37:04.146
So,<00:37:03.713> there's<00:37:03.954> that.

00:37:04.675 --> 00:37:07.850
But,<00:37:05.253> yeah,<00:37:05.862> the<00:37:05.942> promotion<00:37:06.664> of<00:37:06.840> a<00:37:06.920> book,<00:37:07.177> it's<00:37:07.385> changing.

00:37:08.764 --> 00:37:12.453
The<00:37:08.925> best<00:37:09.165> practice<00:37:10.272> years<00:37:10.464> ago<00:37:11.090> was<00:37:11.314> very<00:37:11.491> different<00:37:11.763> because<00:37:11.956> the<00:37:12.036> world's<00:37:12.212> changed.

00:37:12.517 --> 00:37:15.002
We're<00:37:12.581> not<00:37:12.629> paying<00:37:12.854> taxes<00:37:13.335> based<00:37:13.559> on<00:37:13.639> the<00:37:13.671> number<00:37:13.896> of<00:37:14.120> sheets<00:37:14.297> in<00:37:14.377> the<00:37:14.473> newspaper.

00:37:15.339 --> 00:37:15.948
Things<00:37:15.580> are<00:37:15.644> changing.

00:37:17.167 --> 00:37:20.839
For<00:37:18.306> my<00:37:18.466> last<00:37:18.867> book,<00:37:19.348> I<00:37:19.428> did<00:37:19.588> a<00:37:19.604> lot<00:37:19.765> of<00:37:19.893> podcast<00:37:20.326> interviews.

00:37:21.417 --> 00:37:25.321
I<00:37:21.433> had<00:37:21.658> already<00:37:22.397> had<00:37:22.734> a<00:37:22.863> lot<00:37:23.184> of<00:37:23.361> consulting<00:37:23.843> clients<00:37:24.245> and<00:37:24.389> public<00:37:24.582> speaking<00:37:24.951> clients.

00:37:25.996 --> 00:37:27.634
Um,<00:37:26.253> but<00:37:26.413> I<00:37:26.574> did<00:37:26.799> webinars.

00:37:27.939 --> 00:37:46.462
I<00:37:28.100> did,<00:37:28.823> yeah,<00:37:29.128> all<00:37:29.160> sorts<00:37:29.449> of<00:37:29.626> kind<00:37:29.771> of<00:37:29.931> web<00:37:30.108> campaigns,<00:37:30.670> but<00:37:30.831> they<00:37:31.072> sort<00:37:31.313> of<00:37:31.474> boiled<00:37:31.875> down<00:37:32.116> to<00:37:32.277> this<00:37:33.305> idea<00:37:33.867> of<00:37:34.670> like<00:37:34.847> super<00:37:35.329> connecting,<00:37:35.811> I<00:37:35.972> guess,<00:37:36.277> like<00:37:36.759> who<00:37:36.936> has<00:37:37.337> an<00:37:37.482> audience<00:37:37.883> that<00:37:38.060> they<00:37:38.221> pay<00:37:38.397> atten—<00:37:38.783> that<00:37:38.944> pays<00:37:39.120> attention<00:37:39.458> to<00:37:39.586> them<00:37:40.389> that<00:37:40.550> can<00:37:40.775> have<00:37:41.032> me<00:37:41.337> on<00:37:41.578> to<00:37:41.675> talk<00:37:41.851> about<00:37:42.076> these<00:37:42.301> ideas,<00:37:42.654> or<00:37:42.783> who<00:37:42.879> can<00:37:43.426> say<00:37:43.843> that<00:37:44.068> they<00:37:44.711> read<00:37:45.209> this<00:37:45.610> and<00:37:45.691> they<00:37:45.851> like<00:37:46.076> these<00:37:46.237> ideas.

00:37:46.558 --> 00:37:47.586
That's<00:37:46.799> the<00:37:47.040> general<00:37:47.458> thing.

00:37:47.715 --> 00:37:48.277
So<00:37:47.843> it's<00:37:47.940> like<00:37:48.165> the.

00:37:48.662 --> 00:37:53.686
If<00:37:48.807> Oprah<00:37:49.609> has<00:37:49.866> your<00:37:50.010> book<00:37:50.187> on,<00:37:50.412> she's<00:37:50.572> like,<00:37:50.829> "This<00:37:50.989> book<00:37:51.166> is<00:37:51.294> great<00:37:51.551> and<00:37:51.615> I<00:37:51.631> love<00:37:51.856> it,"<00:37:52.530> a<00:37:52.594> lot<00:37:52.771> of<00:37:52.835> people<00:37:53.140> will<00:37:53.301> listen<00:37:53.509> to<00:37:53.638> that.

00:37:53.814 --> 00:37:57.570
So,<00:37:54.039> there's<00:37:54.504> sort<00:37:54.745> of<00:37:54.986> the<00:37:55.066> micro<00:37:55.467> version<00:37:55.708> of<00:37:55.788> that<00:37:56.045> times<00:37:56.350> 1,000.

00:37:58.035 --> 00:38:00.876
But<00:37:58.533> that<00:37:58.709> may<00:37:58.853> not<00:37:59.094> be—<00:37:59.479> there<00:38:00.041> are<00:38:00.121> so<00:38:00.218> many<00:38:00.378> books<00:38:00.619> out<00:38:00.779> there.

00:38:00.940 --> 00:38:08.579
That<00:38:01.036> may<00:38:01.116> not<00:38:01.341> be<00:38:01.646> the<00:38:02.625> best<00:38:02.850> strategy<00:38:03.588> for<00:38:04.936> leveraging<00:38:05.434> your<00:38:05.658> time<00:38:06.076> and<00:38:06.541> resources<00:38:07.183> for<00:38:07.279> a<00:38:07.360> book<00:38:07.985> tomorrow.

00:38:09.366 --> 00:38:14.437
But<00:38:09.526> in<00:38:09.671> general,<00:38:09.992> that<00:38:10.088> principle<00:38:10.489> of<00:38:10.634> people<00:38:10.890> pay<00:38:11.115> attention<00:38:11.404> to<00:38:11.452> the<00:38:11.532> recommendations<00:38:12.190> of<00:38:12.335> other<00:38:12.495> people,<00:38:13.362> I<00:38:13.458> think,<00:38:13.715> is<00:38:13.875> a<00:38:14.020> good<00:38:14.245> one.

00:38:14.807 --> 00:38:17.715
Whether<00:38:15.144> it's,<00:38:15.385> you<00:38:15.562> know,<00:38:15.787> podcasts<00:38:16.269> or<00:38:16.413> Oprah<00:38:16.590> Show<00:38:17.313> or<00:38:17.394> whatever.

00:38:18.036 --> 00:38:25.469
So<00:38:18.133> the<00:38:18.277> thing<00:38:18.695> I'll<00:38:18.840> say,<00:38:19.081> the<00:38:19.241> thing<00:38:19.402> that's<00:38:19.643> sort<00:38:19.788> of<00:38:19.868> like<00:38:20.447> the<00:38:20.591> newspaper<00:38:21.491> tax<00:38:21.812> thing<00:38:22.616> is<00:38:22.777> the<00:38:22.921> convention<00:38:23.500> used<00:38:23.741> to<00:38:23.950> be<00:38:24.150> go<00:38:24.400> on<00:38:24.567> Good<00:38:24.734> Morning<00:38:25.068> America.

00:38:27.152 --> 00:38:31.335
That<00:38:27.876> I've<00:38:28.053> had<00:38:28.198> plenty<00:38:28.423> of<00:38:28.504> friends<00:38:28.745> go<00:38:28.841> on<00:38:28.922> Good<00:38:29.147> Morning<00:38:29.340> America<00:38:29.646> and<00:38:29.887> not<00:38:30.064> sell<00:38:30.450> very<00:38:30.627> many<00:38:30.852> books<00:38:31.078> from<00:38:31.239> it.

00:38:31.802 --> 00:38:34.312
You<00:38:31.834> know,<00:38:31.979> it<00:38:32.123> used<00:38:32.300> to<00:38:32.445> be<00:38:32.542> this<00:38:32.847> traditional<00:38:33.411> be<00:38:33.652> on<00:38:33.893> TV.

00:38:34.472 --> 00:38:39.676
Like,<00:38:34.633> I,<00:38:34.714> you<00:38:34.955> know,<00:38:35.116> I<00:38:35.261> was<00:38:35.502> on<00:38:36.390> CNBC<00:38:37.057> and<00:38:37.203> Fox<00:38:37.463> Business<00:38:37.870> and<00:38:37.968> CNN<00:38:38.602> and<00:38:38.748> all<00:38:38.911> of<00:38:39.009> these,<00:38:39.253> you<00:38:39.334> know,<00:38:39.480> Bloomberg.

00:38:40.366 --> 00:38:41.408
I<00:38:40.382> did<00:38:40.494> not<00:38:40.638> sell<00:38:40.847> books<00:38:41.071> from<00:38:41.247> that.

00:38:41.808 --> 00:38:47.322
Um,<00:38:42.706> and,<00:38:43.011> uh,<00:38:43.427> and<00:38:43.572> so,<00:38:43.812> you<00:38:43.844> know,<00:38:43.988> that<00:38:44.229> I<00:38:44.389> think<00:38:44.613> used<00:38:44.774> to<00:38:44.854> be<00:38:44.950> very<00:38:45.174> much<00:38:45.351> a<00:38:45.431> thing<00:38:45.591> and<00:38:45.671> now<00:38:45.848> it's,<00:38:46.216> uh,<00:38:46.457> very<00:38:46.569> much<00:38:46.857> less<00:38:47.034> of<00:38:47.114> a<00:38:47.258> thing.

00:38:47.370 --> 00:38:49.165
Isn't<00:38:48.701> that<00:38:48.877> funny?

00:38:49.358 --> 00:38:57.933
Like,<00:38:49.903> uh,<00:38:51.425> yeah,<00:38:51.698> th—<00:38:51.826> this<00:38:51.986> whole<00:38:52.163> idea<00:38:52.627> of<00:38:52.724> like<00:38:52.948> being<00:38:53.204> on<00:38:53.349> TV,<00:38:53.589> it<00:38:53.749> almost<00:38:53.990> feels<00:38:54.310> like<00:38:55.112> having<00:38:55.368> done<00:38:55.529> a<00:38:55.593> little<00:38:55.769> bit<00:38:55.913> of<00:38:56.025> that<00:38:56.170> myself<00:38:56.715> out<00:38:56.891> in,<00:38:57.035> in,<00:38:57.276> in<00:38:57.356> a<00:38:57.388> different<00:38:57.676> way.

00:38:58.237 --> 00:39:08.511
Um,<00:38:58.894> it<00:38:58.975> almost<00:38:59.215> feels<00:38:59.391> like<00:38:59.600> the<00:38:59.712> social<00:39:00.417> media<00:39:01.042> post,<00:39:01.539> like<00:39:01.715> someone<00:39:02.020> taking<00:39:02.356> a<00:39:02.421> picture<00:39:02.741> of<00:39:02.901> you,<00:39:03.062> like<00:39:03.446> at<00:39:03.607> that<00:39:03.767> anchor<00:39:04.039> desk<00:39:04.344> or<00:39:04.408> whatever,<00:39:05.610> is<00:39:05.787> more<00:39:06.027> valuable<00:39:06.828> than<00:39:06.989> the<00:39:07.149> actual<00:39:07.646> like<00:39:07.886> segment.

00:39:08.750 --> 00:39:11.700
Because<00:39:09.200> you<00:39:09.300> get<00:39:09.440> to<00:39:09.620> say<00:39:09.940> you<00:39:10.120> were<00:39:10.280> on<00:39:10.480> this<00:39:10.720> thing,<00:39:11.160> right?

00:39:11.700 --> 00:39:14.860
But<00:39:11.800> like,<00:39:12.020> obviously,<00:39:12.380> like,<00:39:12.720> I,<00:39:13.380> I've<00:39:13.420> been<00:39:13.520> on<00:39:13.740> the,<00:39:14.120> the<00:39:14.160> news<00:39:14.400> a<00:39:14.540> few<00:39:14.600> times.

00:39:14.860 --> 00:39:17.440
I<00:39:14.880> don't<00:39:14.980> know<00:39:15.060> how<00:39:15.200> to<00:39:15.320> find—<00:39:16.020> I<00:39:16.040> don't<00:39:16.140> know<00:39:16.300> how<00:39:16.340> to<00:39:16.380> tell<00:39:16.480> people<00:39:16.660> to<00:39:16.900> find<00:39:17.140> it.

00:39:17.740 --> 00:39:21.480
I<00:39:17.920> don't<00:39:18.060> know,<00:39:18.180> you<00:39:18.260> know,<00:39:18.340> like,<00:39:18.440> it's,<00:39:18.840> it's<00:39:19.520> so<00:39:19.700> outdated<00:39:20.140> that<00:39:20.360> it<00:39:20.600> just<00:39:20.680> whooshes<00:39:21.160> by.

00:39:21.480 --> 00:39:23.400
Yeah,<00:39:21.740> it's<00:39:21.880> like,<00:39:22.040> I<00:39:22.160> don't<00:39:22.280> know,<00:39:22.700> but<00:39:22.860> here's<00:39:23.060> a<00:39:23.220> picture.

00:39:23.400 --> 00:39:26.640
And<00:39:23.600> the<00:39:23.660> picture<00:39:24.000> is<00:39:24.200> cool<00:39:24.440> because<00:39:24.620> everyone's<00:39:24.879> like,<00:39:25.340> oh,<00:39:25.560> you<00:39:25.780> must<00:39:25.940> be<00:39:26.080> doing<00:39:26.240> something.

00:39:27.220 --> 00:39:31.880
Um,<00:39:27.840> so<00:39:27.980> you're<00:39:28.200> right,<00:39:28.460> it's<00:39:28.540> that<00:39:28.740> credibility<00:39:29.260> stamp<00:39:29.720> that<00:39:29.980> actually<00:39:30.260> I<00:39:30.580> would<00:39:30.840> say<00:39:31.020> is<00:39:31.180> more<00:39:31.280> valuable.

00:39:32.160 --> 00:39:33.940
Yeah,<00:39:32.660> yeah,<00:39:32.700> it<00:39:32.840> becomes<00:39:33.040> the<00:39:33.240> credibility<00:39:33.640> stamp.

00:39:33.940 --> 00:39:34.720
I<00:39:34.060> have<00:39:34.180> a<00:39:34.300> question<00:39:34.440> for<00:39:34.640> you.

00:39:34.720 --> 00:39:35.700
We<00:39:34.840> have<00:39:34.960> a<00:39:35.080> theory<00:39:35.400> here.

00:39:35.860 --> 00:39:36.980
I<00:39:36.120> have<00:39:36.280> a<00:39:36.380> theory<00:39:36.600> here.

00:39:37.685 --> 00:39:41.879
That<00:39:37.992> life<00:39:38.252> is<00:39:38.333> as<00:39:38.494> much<00:39:38.640> about<00:39:38.818> the<00:39:38.899> chances<00:39:39.628> you<00:39:39.936> give<00:39:40.583> as<00:39:40.745> the<00:39:40.826> chances<00:39:41.409> you<00:39:41.571> take.

00:39:43.490 --> 00:39:54.281
And<00:39:43.747> I<00:39:43.844> want<00:39:44.344> to<00:39:46.165> maybe<00:39:46.423> touch<00:39:46.987> in<00:39:47.068> with<00:39:47.293> you<00:39:47.471> on<00:39:47.616> this<00:39:47.793> idea<00:39:48.260> of<00:39:49.227> when<00:39:49.485> in<00:39:49.663> your<00:39:49.872> life<00:39:50.130> have<00:39:50.275> you<00:39:50.372> been<00:39:50.678> given<00:39:51.000> a<00:39:51.097> chance<00:39:52.056> that<00:39:52.402> really<00:39:53.226> made<00:39:53.638> a<00:39:53.704> difference?

00:39:55.630 --> 00:39:56.641
Wow,<00:39:55.916> I<00:39:56.000> love<00:39:56.152> that<00:39:56.253> question.

00:39:59.130 --> 00:40:04.428
You<00:39:59.341> know,<00:40:01.347> there's<00:40:01.608> been—<00:40:02.749> I<00:40:02.765> mean,<00:40:03.075> I<00:40:03.156> think<00:40:03.336> about<00:40:03.564> my<00:40:03.792> writing<00:40:04.216> career.

00:40:05.113 --> 00:40:09.818
There<00:40:05.161> have<00:40:05.274> been<00:40:05.434> times<00:40:05.900> when<00:40:06.301> I've<00:40:06.398> been<00:40:06.558> taken<00:40:06.879> under<00:40:07.377> someone's<00:40:07.843> wing<00:40:08.308> or<00:40:09.272> I<00:40:09.288> was<00:40:09.529> pitching.

00:40:10.476 --> 00:40:17.589
I<00:40:10.508> mean,<00:40:10.653> my<00:40:10.813> first<00:40:11.359> magazine<00:40:11.793> story<00:40:13.206> was<00:40:13.382> for<00:40:13.607> Wired<00:40:13.864> Magazine,<00:40:14.667> which<00:40:14.827> is<00:40:15.229> a<00:40:15.373> hard<00:40:15.614> magazine<00:40:16.112> to<00:40:17.059> get<00:40:17.220> into.

00:40:18.279 --> 00:40:18.841
For<00:40:18.440> sure.

00:40:18.922 --> 00:40:22.101
That's<00:40:19.725> the<00:40:19.885> premier<00:40:21.330> tech<00:40:21.571> magazine.

00:40:22.213 --> 00:40:22.454
Yeah.

00:40:22.856 --> 00:40:24.269
I<00:40:23.193> still,<00:40:23.498> I<00:40:23.578> love<00:40:23.723> that<00:40:23.771> magazine.

00:40:25.087 --> 00:40:33.112
And<00:40:25.264> I'd<00:40:25.425> worked<00:40:25.665> my<00:40:25.810> way<00:40:26.067> up<00:40:26.950> the<00:40:27.416> ladder<00:40:27.817> of<00:40:27.994> blogs<00:40:28.475> and<00:40:30.707> in<00:40:31.268> order<00:40:31.444> to<00:40:31.765> have<00:40:32.005> some<00:40:32.326> credibility<00:40:32.807> for<00:40:33.048> it.

00:40:33.448 --> 00:40:34.459
But<00:40:33.529> I<00:40:33.545> was<00:40:33.625> still<00:40:33.930> pretty<00:40:34.154> green.

00:40:34.795 --> 00:40:43.149
And<00:40:35.036> the<00:40:35.437> editor<00:40:35.998> that<00:40:36.736> gave<00:40:36.976> me<00:40:37.120> a<00:40:37.136> shot<00:40:37.617> to<00:40:37.858> write<00:40:38.163> that<00:40:38.339> first<00:40:39.125> feature<00:40:39.381> story<00:40:39.622> for<00:40:39.846> Wired,<00:40:40.423> I'm<00:40:40.744> really<00:40:40.969> grateful<00:40:41.305> for<00:40:41.466> because<00:40:41.706> that<00:40:41.867> was<00:40:42.027> an<00:40:42.091> accelerant<00:40:42.492> to<00:40:42.572> my<00:40:42.732> career.

00:40:43.791 --> 00:40:46.725
And<00:40:44.192> I<00:40:44.336> probably,<00:40:45.715> it<00:40:45.747> was<00:40:45.891> a<00:40:45.939> lot<00:40:46.100> of<00:40:46.180> work<00:40:46.420> to<00:40:46.581> edit.

00:40:47.543 --> 00:40:48.393
So<00:40:47.655> that<00:40:47.799> comes<00:40:48.056> to<00:40:48.136> mind.

00:40:48.441 --> 00:40:52.032
There's<00:40:48.617> a<00:40:48.681> couple<00:40:49.146> of<00:40:50.509> mentors<00:40:51.151> who<00:40:51.247> come<00:40:51.487> to<00:40:51.567> mind.

00:40:52.113 --> 00:41:06.150
When<00:40:52.273> I<00:40:52.369> was<00:40:52.850> in<00:40:52.995> college,<00:40:54.133> there's<00:40:54.454> a<00:40:54.470> guy<00:40:54.758> who's<00:40:55.560> up<00:40:55.720> at<00:40:56.201> Columbia<00:40:57.340> in<00:40:57.436> New<00:40:57.484> York<00:40:57.677> City,<00:40:58.922> a<00:40:59.003> guy<00:40:59.246> who<00:40:59.343> was<00:40:59.505> in<00:40:59.651> charge<00:40:59.927> of<00:41:00.218> this<00:41:00.786> sort<00:41:00.899> of<00:41:01.207> entrepreneurship<00:41:02.730> program<00:41:03.395> of<00:41:03.492> spinning<00:41:03.881> out<00:41:04.027> ideas<00:41:04.351> from<00:41:04.513> the<00:41:04.610> business<00:41:04.869> school<00:41:05.339> into<00:41:05.647> the<00:41:05.744> market.

00:41:06.701 --> 00:41:16.568
And<00:41:06.782> I<00:41:06.863> was<00:41:06.960> in<00:41:07.041> the<00:41:07.090> journalism<00:41:07.510> program<00:41:08.157> and,<00:41:08.481> and<00:41:09.047> he<00:41:09.953> was<00:41:10.179> not<00:41:10.373> supposed<00:41:10.746> to<00:41:10.843> meet<00:41:11.085> with<00:41:11.328> me<00:41:11.490> because<00:41:12.201> for<00:41:12.379> whatever<00:41:12.768> reason,<00:41:13.107> and<00:41:13.609> he—<00:41:13.981> I<00:41:14.159> emailed<00:41:14.402> him,<00:41:14.515> I<00:41:14.547> was<00:41:14.644> like,<00:41:14.806> hey,<00:41:14.968> I<00:41:15.049> could<00:41:15.146> use<00:41:15.275> some<00:41:15.372> help<00:41:15.534> with<00:41:15.679> this<00:41:15.841> thing<00:41:15.906> I'm<00:41:16.084> thinking<00:41:16.326> through.

00:41:18.263 --> 00:41:23.558
And,<00:41:19.087> and<00:41:19.716> he<00:41:19.813> was<00:41:19.958> like,<00:41:20.055> come<00:41:20.233> to<00:41:20.313> my<00:41:20.539> office,<00:41:20.943> but<00:41:21.911> don't<00:41:22.218> go<00:41:22.396> past<00:41:22.718> my<00:41:22.880> boss's<00:41:23.283> office.

00:41:23.606 --> 00:41:24.768
Come<00:41:23.929> through<00:41:24.090> this<00:41:24.268> side<00:41:24.655> door.

00:41:25.124 --> 00:41:26.273
And<00:41:25.220> then<00:41:25.350> he<00:41:25.471> like<00:41:25.628> closed<00:41:25.907> the<00:41:25.994> blinds.

00:41:26.325 --> 00:41:27.551
He's<00:41:26.430> like,<00:41:26.956> How<00:41:27.053> do<00:41:27.117> I<00:41:27.213> help<00:41:27.454> you?

00:41:27.615 --> 00:41:29.413
And<00:41:27.775> he's<00:41:28.096> been<00:41:28.257> a<00:41:28.273> mentor<00:41:28.739> for<00:41:28.963> years<00:41:29.285> now.

00:41:30.665 --> 00:41:32.319
I<00:41:30.746> guess<00:41:30.971> like<00:41:31.147> he<00:41:31.227> was<00:41:31.308> supposed<00:41:31.468> to<00:41:31.500> be<00:41:31.549> on<00:41:31.629> the<00:41:31.709> clock<00:41:31.950> for<00:41:32.030> other<00:41:32.191> things.

00:41:32.367 --> 00:41:34.856
I<00:41:32.384> don't<00:41:32.560> know<00:41:32.673> what<00:41:32.833> it<00:41:32.913> was,<00:41:33.170> but<00:41:33.283> he<00:41:33.379> was<00:41:33.540> like,<00:41:33.861> yeah,<00:41:34.118> you're<00:41:34.278> at<00:41:34.359> the<00:41:34.439> J-school.

00:41:34.904 --> 00:41:36.237
Like,<00:41:35.017> I'm<00:41:35.145> supposed<00:41:35.322> to<00:41:35.386> be<00:41:35.563> doing<00:41:35.788> this<00:41:35.884> other<00:41:36.109> thing.

00:41:36.767 --> 00:41:41.231
And<00:41:36.847> he's,<00:41:37.233> he's<00:41:37.409> invested<00:41:37.955> in<00:41:38.132> two<00:41:38.276> of<00:41:38.373> my<00:41:38.517> companies<00:41:38.951> at<00:41:39.015> this<00:41:39.256> point<00:41:39.882> and<00:41:40.123> like<00:41:40.299> opened<00:41:40.540> so<00:41:40.637> many<00:41:40.861> doors.

00:41:41.327 --> 00:41:52.101
And<00:41:41.423> it's<00:41:41.584> just<00:41:41.825> someone<00:41:42.130> who,<00:41:42.290> like,<00:41:43.013> without<00:41:43.334> knowing<00:41:43.591> who<00:41:43.736> I<00:41:43.896> was,<00:41:44.378> just<00:41:45.357> wanted<00:41:45.759> to<00:41:45.983> help,<00:41:47.605> even<00:41:47.846> though,<00:41:48.328> you<00:41:48.424> know,<00:41:49.050> it<00:41:49.131> wasn't<00:41:49.516> his<00:41:49.837> job<00:41:50.158> and<00:41:50.255> he<00:41:50.431> maybe<00:41:50.736> shouldn't<00:41:50.977> have<00:41:51.282> for<00:41:51.459> whatever<00:41:51.780> reason.

00:41:53.048 --> 00:41:56.513
Things<00:41:53.224> like<00:41:53.449> that,<00:41:53.641> I<00:41:53.786> think,<00:41:54.748> have<00:41:55.470> mattered<00:41:56.031> a<00:41:56.112> lot.

00:41:56.898 --> 00:42:18.651
I'll<00:41:58.358> say<00:41:58.518> that<00:41:58.759> on<00:41:58.903> the<00:41:58.999> personal<00:41:59.336> front,<00:41:59.641> the<00:41:59.801> thing<00:41:59.946> that<00:42:00.042> really<00:42:00.283> comes<00:42:00.603> to<00:42:00.700> mind<00:42:01.405> is—<00:42:02.705> so<00:42:02.994> I'm<00:42:04.133> divorced<00:42:04.854> and<00:42:05.320> married<00:42:05.576> a<00:42:05.592> second<00:42:05.961> time,<00:42:06.860> and<00:42:07.646> I<00:42:08.528> had<00:42:08.929> a<00:42:08.945> lot<00:42:09.186> of<00:42:09.330> baggage<00:42:09.811> after<00:42:10.052> my<00:42:10.229> divorce<00:42:10.614> that<00:42:10.774> I<00:42:10.790> had<00:42:10.950> to<00:42:11.095> work<00:42:11.351> through,<00:42:11.833> like<00:42:12.073> internal<00:42:12.539> baggage,<00:42:13.902> and<00:42:14.303> swore<00:42:15.603> I<00:42:15.683> would<00:42:15.843> never<00:42:16.084> love<00:42:16.244> again<00:42:16.565> and<00:42:16.709> all<00:42:16.886> of<00:42:16.966> that,<00:42:17.207> and<00:42:17.544> certainly<00:42:17.848> never<00:42:18.025> get<00:42:18.169> married.

00:42:20.176 --> 00:42:21.268
Fool<00:42:20.336> me<00:42:20.497> twice,<00:42:20.818> that<00:42:20.979> whole<00:42:21.139> thing.

00:42:22.007 --> 00:42:34.935
And<00:42:23.308> when<00:42:24.271> I<00:42:24.432> met<00:42:24.753> my<00:42:25.235> wife,<00:42:25.540> Sylvia,<00:42:26.343> and<00:42:26.600> we<00:42:26.680> started<00:42:26.985> dating,<00:42:28.029> I<00:42:28.110> was<00:42:28.206> such<00:42:28.463> a<00:42:28.527> pain<00:42:29.009> about<00:42:29.571> that<00:42:30.294> whole<00:42:30.695> thing<00:42:30.856> I<00:42:30.920> had<00:42:31.113> in<00:42:31.161> my<00:42:31.402> head<00:42:31.659> about<00:42:32.045> how<00:42:32.221> I<00:42:32.366> was<00:42:32.542> not<00:42:32.928> going<00:42:33.121> to<00:42:34.148> be<00:42:34.293> fooled<00:42:34.550> twice.

00:42:35.257 --> 00:42:44.861
And<00:42:35.337> I<00:42:35.514> think<00:42:36.381> she<00:42:36.718> gave<00:42:37.023> me<00:42:37.120> the<00:42:37.264> chance<00:42:37.585> to<00:42:37.746> grow<00:42:39.513> in<00:42:39.673> a<00:42:39.754> way<00:42:39.930> that<00:42:40.155> I<00:42:40.332> think<00:42:40.958> a<00:42:41.054> less<00:42:41.279> mature<00:42:41.617> person<00:42:43.223> would<00:42:43.367> have<00:42:44.106> said,<00:42:44.347> I'm<00:42:44.523> out<00:42:44.668> of<00:42:44.748> here.

00:42:45.712 --> 00:42:51.700
I'm<00:42:45.856> so<00:42:46.017> grateful<00:42:46.354> because<00:42:46.675> we're,<00:42:46.996> you<00:42:47.173> know,<00:42:47.943> we're<00:42:48.040> having<00:42:48.281> a<00:42:48.425> kid<00:42:48.826> and,<00:42:49.629> you<00:42:50.063> know,<00:42:50.609> I've<00:42:50.753> never<00:42:50.914> been<00:42:51.074> happier<00:42:51.315> in<00:42:51.347> my<00:42:51.492> life.

00:42:51.748 --> 00:42:53.916
And<00:42:51.877> she's,<00:42:52.053> you<00:42:52.358> know,<00:42:52.615> like<00:42:52.776> I<00:42:52.792> said,<00:42:53.081> my<00:42:53.177> co-author.

00:42:53.996 --> 00:42:55.024
She's<00:42:54.205> my<00:42:54.301> business<00:42:54.622> partner.

00:42:55.585 --> 00:42:57.062
Been<00:42:55.730> together<00:42:55.987> for<00:42:56.693> a<00:42:56.773> while<00:42:56.950> now.

00:42:57.207 --> 00:43:06.968
And<00:42:58.234> I<00:42:58.315> think,<00:42:58.716> you<00:42:58.812> know,<00:42:59.663> who<00:42:59.744> knows<00:42:59.984> what<00:43:00.482> made<00:43:00.707> her<00:43:00.867> decide<00:43:01.285> to<00:43:01.429> do<00:43:01.526> that,<00:43:01.702> if<00:43:01.863> it's<00:43:02.071> just<00:43:02.232> that<00:43:02.312> she's<00:43:02.553> wonderful<00:43:02.971> or<00:43:03.131> if,<00:43:03.452> you<00:43:03.548> know,<00:43:04.255> she<00:43:04.415> just<00:43:05.218> randomly<00:43:05.684> decided<00:43:06.101> to<00:43:06.246> give<00:43:06.406> me<00:43:06.583> a<00:43:06.647> shot.

00:43:07.048 --> 00:43:10.243
But<00:43:07.145> I<00:43:07.386> think<00:43:07.947> most<00:43:08.188> people<00:43:08.413> would<00:43:08.493> have<00:43:08.590> walked<00:43:08.846> away<00:43:09.232> because<00:43:09.392> I<00:43:09.473> was<00:43:09.697> a<00:43:09.713> bit<00:43:09.858> of<00:43:09.954> a<00:43:09.970> mess.

00:43:10.420 --> 00:43:11.913
So<00:43:11.094> I'm<00:43:11.239> grateful<00:43:11.640> for<00:43:11.784> that.

00:43:12.609 --> 00:43:13.349
That's<00:43:12.872> incredible.

00:43:13.448 --> 00:43:14.649
That's<00:43:13.596> the<00:43:13.662> one<00:43:13.761> that<00:43:13.843> matters<00:43:14.238> the<00:43:14.271> most.

00:43:16.190 --> 00:43:28.009
I<00:43:16.206> wonder,<00:43:17.663> as,<00:43:18.635> as<00:43:18.749> you're<00:43:19.218> building<00:43:19.607> this<00:43:19.850> next<00:43:20.109> company,<00:43:22.290> maybe<00:43:22.402> we<00:43:22.547> can<00:43:22.628> talk<00:43:22.869> about<00:43:23.047> that<00:43:23.224> a<00:43:23.272> little<00:43:23.449> bit,<00:43:23.611> like<00:43:23.756> kind<00:43:23.933> of<00:43:24.078> lessons<00:43:24.416> you've<00:43:24.642> learned<00:43:24.883> from<00:43:24.980> your<00:43:25.141> previous<00:43:25.544> companies,<00:43:26.414> what,<00:43:26.736> what<00:43:26.913> you're<00:43:27.074> applying<00:43:27.477> to<00:43:27.622> this<00:43:27.799> one.

00:43:28.508 --> 00:43:30.779
And<00:43:28.589> also,<00:43:28.911> like,<00:43:29.410> tell<00:43:29.652> people<00:43:29.877> what<00:43:30.055> this<00:43:30.216> company<00:43:30.683> is.

00:43:30.860 --> 00:43:31.877
Is<00:43:31.166> this<00:43:31.263> Showrunner?

00:43:32.555 --> 00:43:32.927
It<00:43:32.636> is.

00:43:33.104 --> 00:43:33.217
Yep.

00:43:33.282 --> 00:43:34.526
So<00:43:33.379> that<00:43:33.589> is<00:43:33.702> the<00:43:33.847> full-time<00:43:34.267> thing<00:43:34.477> now.

00:43:35.785 --> 00:43:37.465
We're<00:43:36.415> headquartered<00:43:36.900> in<00:43:36.980> Chicago.

00:43:37.936 --> 00:43:39.847
And<00:43:38.177> we<00:43:38.274> have<00:43:38.611> employees<00:43:38.996> kind<00:43:39.141> of<00:43:39.221> all<00:43:39.317> over<00:43:39.478> the<00:43:39.622> place.

00:43:40.441 --> 00:44:01.540
So<00:43:40.522> showrunner,<00:43:41.485> so<00:43:41.790> after<00:43:42.529> Contently<00:43:43.412> and<00:43:43.797> after,<00:43:44.359> you<00:43:44.391> know,<00:43:45.322> the<00:43:45.419> books,<00:43:46.206> I<00:43:46.848> started<00:43:47.265> getting<00:43:47.426> into<00:43:47.892> writing<00:43:48.068> for<00:43:48.213> television<00:43:49.915> and<00:43:50.059> making<00:43:50.396> indie<00:43:50.621> movies<00:43:51.520> because<00:43:51.777> my,<00:43:53.190> what<00:43:53.287> I<00:43:53.431> decided<00:43:54.009> is<00:43:54.170> that<00:43:54.330> entertainment<00:43:54.892> was<00:43:55.358> a<00:43:55.936> vehicle<00:43:56.482> to<00:43:56.578> reach<00:43:56.755> a<00:43:56.883> lot<00:43:57.124> more<00:43:57.285> people<00:43:57.766> than<00:43:57.943> I<00:43:57.959> had<00:43:58.104> reached<00:43:58.328> before<00:43:58.665> with,<00:43:58.890> you<00:43:59.003> know,<00:43:59.533> business<00:43:59.789> writing<00:44:00.191> and<00:44:00.271> with<00:44:00.592> investigative<00:44:00.994> journalism.

00:44:01.941 --> 00:44:02.985
So<00:44:02.037> I<00:44:02.182> wanted<00:44:02.423> to<00:44:02.503> try<00:44:02.760> that.

00:44:03.547 --> 00:44:10.575
Use<00:44:04.365> entertaining<00:44:04.911> stories<00:44:05.472> to<00:44:06.355> show<00:44:06.531> people<00:44:06.852> the<00:44:06.997> world<00:44:07.173> that<00:44:07.254> they<00:44:07.350> don't<00:44:07.510> see<00:44:07.735> or<00:44:08.136> help<00:44:08.361> them<00:44:08.473> understand<00:44:08.858> people<00:44:09.179> that<00:44:09.340> I<00:44:09.885> want<00:44:10.046> them<00:44:10.142> to<00:44:10.222> care<00:44:10.383> about.

00:44:11.651 --> 00:44:17.604
And<00:44:12.309> that<00:44:12.549> led<00:44:12.774> to<00:44:12.950> starting<00:44:13.287> a<00:44:13.576> production<00:44:13.913> company<00:44:14.539> with<00:44:14.828> my<00:44:15.037> wife,<00:44:15.454> Sylvia,<00:44:16.722> and<00:44:16.802> a<00:44:16.882> business<00:44:17.203> partner.

00:44:18.246 --> 00:44:32.685
And<00:44:18.326> then<00:44:18.487> during<00:44:18.712> the<00:44:18.792> pandemic,<00:44:19.771> we,<00:44:20.493> because<00:44:20.798> of<00:44:21.135> COVID<00:44:21.440> restrictions<00:44:22.178> and<00:44:22.579> everything<00:44:22.900> else,<00:44:23.125> we<00:44:23.205> had<00:44:23.301> to<00:44:23.446> work<00:44:23.783> with<00:44:24.184> very<00:44:24.970> limited<00:44:25.452> crew<00:44:26.655> and<00:44:27.458> couldn't<00:44:27.714> do,<00:44:28.116> you<00:44:28.196> know,<00:44:28.501> a<00:44:28.581> lot<00:44:28.774> of—<00:44:28.918> it<00:44:29.062> takes<00:44:29.239> a<00:44:29.255> lot<00:44:29.399> of<00:44:29.464> people<00:44:29.640> to<00:44:29.785> make<00:44:29.961> a<00:44:30.090> commercial<00:44:30.522> or<00:44:30.602> a<00:44:30.618> music<00:44:30.923> video<00:44:31.307> or,<00:44:31.500> you<00:44:31.660> know,<00:44:31.884> episode<00:44:32.140> of<00:44:32.205> television.

00:44:33.310 --> 00:44:40.296
And<00:44:33.390> so<00:44:33.502> we<00:44:33.583> started<00:44:33.855> experimenting<00:44:34.528> with<00:44:35.009> smart<00:44:35.409> home<00:44:35.650> tools<00:44:36.611> so<00:44:36.755> that<00:44:36.915> you<00:44:37.012> can<00:44:37.156> remote<00:44:37.412> control<00:44:37.813> the<00:44:37.893> camera<00:44:38.149> from<00:44:38.374> afar,<00:44:38.678> remote<00:44:39.014> control<00:44:39.335> the<00:44:39.431> lights<00:44:39.720> from<00:44:39.896> afar.

00:44:41.578 --> 00:44:47.267
And<00:44:41.658> then<00:44:41.883> that<00:44:42.139> kind<00:44:42.379> of<00:44:42.476> snowballed<00:44:43.261> into<00:44:44.222> building<00:44:44.527> a<00:44:44.607> tech<00:44:44.863> platform<00:44:45.424> for<00:44:45.905> running<00:44:46.145> a<00:44:46.289> studio<00:44:46.561> like<00:44:46.770> a<00:44:46.802> smart<00:44:47.090> home.

00:44:47.827 --> 00:45:02.582
And<00:44:47.907> the<00:44:48.068> big<00:44:48.709> kind<00:44:48.853> of<00:44:49.013> aha<00:44:49.350> for<00:44:49.590> us<00:44:49.814> when<00:44:49.974> we<00:44:50.231> decided<00:44:50.856> this<00:44:51.032> is<00:44:51.208> a<00:44:51.272> company<00:44:51.593> that<00:44:51.977> we<00:44:52.009> shouldn't<00:44:52.218> just<00:44:52.394> use<00:44:52.634> these<00:44:52.795> tools,<00:44:53.099> but<00:44:53.195> we<00:44:53.291> should<00:44:53.836> offer<00:44:53.996> it<00:44:54.076> to<00:44:54.157> other<00:44:54.317> people,<00:44:55.262> was<00:44:55.422> this<00:44:55.519> thing<00:44:55.679> called<00:44:55.919> virtual<00:44:56.240> production,<00:44:56.945> which<00:44:57.185> is<00:44:57.939> Essentially,<00:44:59.529> it's<00:44:59.674> the<00:44:59.754> smartest<00:45:00.252> part<00:45:00.574> of<00:45:00.654> a<00:45:00.815> smart<00:45:01.393> studio,<00:45:01.859> I<00:45:01.939> guess<00:45:02.100> you<00:45:02.180> could<00:45:02.325> say.

00:45:02.919 --> 00:45:16.654
Instead<00:45:03.160> of<00:45:03.240> going<00:45:03.529> on<00:45:03.626> location<00:45:04.188> to,<00:45:04.574> you<00:45:04.670> know,<00:45:04.815> bring<00:45:04.991> your<00:45:05.136> crew<00:45:05.329> and<00:45:05.393> your<00:45:05.618> actors<00:45:06.019> to<00:45:06.501> like<00:45:06.823> the<00:45:06.919> desert<00:45:07.321> or<00:45:07.481> a<00:45:07.497> street<00:45:07.883> in<00:45:07.963> Croatia<00:45:08.445> or<00:45:08.670> whatever,<00:45:09.570> you<00:45:09.650> have<00:45:09.827> a<00:45:09.955> room<00:45:10.132> made<00:45:10.357> out<00:45:10.437> of<00:45:10.485> LED<00:45:10.919> walls<00:45:11.401> and<00:45:11.497> you<00:45:11.803> put<00:45:12.461> that<00:45:12.702> location<00:45:13.248> on<00:45:13.345> the<00:45:13.506> LED<00:45:13.891> walls<00:45:14.855> and<00:45:14.951> then<00:45:15.096> you<00:45:15.192> connect<00:45:15.594> trackers<00:45:16.140> to<00:45:16.236> the<00:45:16.317> camera.

00:45:16.718 --> 00:45:18.421
So<00:45:16.815> when<00:45:16.927> the<00:45:16.959> camera<00:45:17.281> moves,<00:45:17.506> the<00:45:17.666> wall<00:45:17.779> moves<00:45:18.084> subtly.

00:45:18.486 --> 00:45:19.530
It<00:45:18.566> looks<00:45:18.887> real<00:45:19.048> to<00:45:19.192> the<00:45:19.273> human<00:45:19.514> eye.

00:45:19.690 --> 00:45:22.534
It's<00:45:20.237> a<00:45:20.253> lot<00:45:20.558> of<00:45:20.799> math<00:45:21.136> that<00:45:21.297> goes<00:45:21.522> into<00:45:21.779> that<00:45:22.020> kind<00:45:22.180> of<00:45:22.261> stuff.

00:45:23.128 --> 00:45:29.540
So<00:45:23.289> we<00:45:23.385> started<00:45:23.626> building<00:45:23.947> tools<00:45:24.349> to<00:45:24.670> help<00:45:25.680> filmmakers<00:45:26.180> do<00:45:26.600> that,<00:45:27.220> and<00:45:27.460> that<00:45:27.680> virtual<00:45:27.980> production<00:45:28.280> world<00:45:28.480> is<00:45:28.640> blowing<00:45:28.900> up.

00:45:29.540 --> 00:45:31.870
Every<00:45:29.541> TV<00:45:29.840> show<00:45:30.000> you<00:45:30.080> see<00:45:30.260> now<00:45:30.520> is<00:45:30.680> using<00:45:30.900> that<00:45:31.080> in<00:45:31.220> some<00:45:31.420> way.

00:45:32.100 --> 00:45:35.100
You<00:45:32.120> know,<00:45:32.200> the<00:45:32.280> new<00:45:32.480> Lord<00:45:32.540> of<00:45:32.720> the<00:45:32.760> Rings<00:45:32.880> show,<00:45:33.220> the<00:45:33.240> new<00:45:33.380> Game<00:45:33.500> of<00:45:33.580> Thrones<00:45:33.780> show,<00:45:34.100> like,<00:45:34.240> all<00:45:34.340> of<00:45:34.420> them<00:45:34.540> are<00:45:34.640> using<00:45:34.800> it.

00:45:35.700 --> 00:45:37.200
And,<00:45:35.900> uh,<00:45:36.180> yeah,<00:45:36.420> so<00:45:36.520> that's<00:45:36.600> what<00:45:36.780> Showrunner<00:45:36.980> is.

00:45:37.200 --> 00:45:39.300
We're<00:45:37.440> making<00:45:37.441> tools<00:45:37.800> for<00:45:38.020> that,<00:45:38.340> and<00:45:38.560> it's<00:45:38.680> going<00:45:38.840> well.

00:45:39.300 --> 00:45:46.380
You<00:45:39.440> know,<00:45:39.980> I<00:45:40.400> don't<00:45:40.500> know<00:45:40.620> how<00:45:40.740> many<00:45:40.880> people<00:45:41.160> are<00:45:41.400> operating<00:45:41.840> sound<00:45:42.200> stages<00:45:42.600> or<00:45:43.240> studios<00:45:43.660> that<00:45:43.820> are<00:45:43.920> listening<00:45:44.160> to<00:45:44.360> this,<00:45:44.500> but<00:45:44.580> if<00:45:44.680> you<00:45:44.920> are,<00:45:45.320> we<00:45:45.500> should<00:45:45.640> definitely<00:45:45.880> talk.

00:45:46.380 --> 00:45:49.240
The<00:45:46.420> stuff<00:45:46.540> that<00:45:46.640> we're<00:45:46.920> doing<00:45:46.921> is<00:45:47.260> very<00:45:47.440> cool,<00:45:47.840> and<00:45:47.980> it's<00:45:48.060> in<00:45:48.160> studios<00:45:48.460> around<00:45:48.680> the<00:45:48.840> country.

00:45:49.720 --> 00:45:56.809
Um,<00:45:50.180> and,<00:45:50.700> uh,<00:45:51.120> yeah,<00:45:51.360> so<00:45:51.540> the<00:45:51.740> things—<00:45:52.400> the,<00:45:52.401> the<00:45:52.600> question<00:45:52.860> you<00:45:52.972> had<00:45:53.438> about<00:45:53.839> what<00:45:55.220> am<00:45:55.541> I<00:45:55.846> doing<00:45:56.103> this<00:45:56.199> time<00:45:56.488> differently?

00:45:56.890 --> 00:45:58.608
What<00:45:56.970> have<00:45:57.066> I<00:45:57.291> taken<00:45:57.548> away<00:45:57.789> from<00:45:57.949> the<00:45:58.046> last<00:45:58.335> company?

00:45:59.555 --> 00:46:10.329
There's<00:45:59.716> a<00:45:59.860> lot<00:46:00.181> of<00:46:00.358> the<00:46:00.615> sort<00:46:00.775> of<00:46:00.920> nuts<00:46:01.161> and<00:46:01.321> bolts<00:46:02.991> things<00:46:03.344> around<00:46:03.730> cash<00:46:04.115> flow<00:46:04.597> and<00:46:05.560> strategic<00:46:06.379> planning<00:46:07.005> that<00:46:08.129> you<00:46:08.226> get<00:46:08.450> wrong<00:46:08.788> once<00:46:09.109> and<00:46:09.253> you<00:46:09.350> never<00:46:09.574> get<00:46:09.735> wrong<00:46:09.976> again.

00:46:11.196 --> 00:46:27.590
But<00:46:11.357> on<00:46:11.437> the<00:46:11.582> team<00:46:11.903> front,<00:46:13.348> we've<00:46:13.524> been<00:46:13.765> very<00:46:14.070> deliberate<00:46:14.488> about<00:46:15.034> how<00:46:15.291> we're<00:46:15.435> hiring<00:46:17.073> so<00:46:17.474> that<00:46:18.806> You<00:46:18.838> know,<00:46:19.143> we<00:46:19.239> don't<00:46:19.367> have<00:46:19.544> to<00:46:19.944> let<00:46:20.105> people<00:46:20.409> go<00:46:20.730> as<00:46:20.970> much<00:46:21.147> so<00:46:21.467> that<00:46:21.627> we,<00:46:22.092> uh,<00:46:22.349> and,<00:46:22.990> and<00:46:23.134> so<00:46:23.310> that<00:46:23.455> there's<00:46:23.615> an<00:46:23.695> expectation<00:46:24.593> for<00:46:24.753> certain<00:46:25.058> roles<00:46:25.474> that<00:46:26.196> this<00:46:26.436> will<00:46:26.677> be<00:46:26.837> a<00:46:26.981> limited<00:46:27.382> thing.

00:46:27.638 --> 00:46:31.854
And<00:46:27.734> so<00:46:28.263> we<00:46:28.424> have,<00:46:28.824> uh,<00:46:29.161> you<00:46:29.225> know,<00:46:29.706> like<00:46:29.818> it's<00:46:29.962> not<00:46:30.123> a<00:46:30.203> big<00:46:30.363> deal<00:46:30.844> when<00:46:31.229> this<00:46:31.389> runs<00:46:31.565> its<00:46:31.726> course.

00:46:31.902 --> 00:46:40.750
So<00:46:32.687> doing<00:46:32.928> a<00:46:32.944> lot<00:46:33.168> with,<00:46:33.793> um,<00:46:34.210> with<00:46:34.531> high-paid<00:46:35.092> contractors<00:46:35.749> so<00:46:35.909> that<00:46:36.054> they<00:46:36.134> can<00:46:36.534> afford<00:46:37.015> the<00:46:37.160> benefits<00:46:37.560> that<00:46:37.737> we<00:46:37.833> can't<00:46:38.041> do<00:46:38.137> with<00:46:38.298> contractors,<00:46:39.420> but<00:46:39.516> keeping<00:46:39.820> a<00:46:39.884> pretty<00:46:40.125> lean<00:46:40.365> team.

00:46:41.183 --> 00:46:45.639
But<00:46:41.568> we've<00:46:41.744> been<00:46:41.904> very<00:46:42.145> deliberate<00:46:42.609> about<00:46:43.427> the<00:46:43.507> different<00:46:43.812> facets<00:46:44.453> of<00:46:44.645> cognitive<00:46:45.174> diversity.

00:46:46.377 --> 00:46:49.715
And,<00:46:46.698> uh,<00:46:47.340> and<00:46:47.902> different<00:46:48.158> kinds<00:46:48.415> of<00:46:48.544> thinking<00:46:48.800> we're<00:46:48.961> bringing<00:46:49.234> to<00:46:49.282> the<00:46:49.442> team.

00:46:49.763 --> 00:46:51.144
And<00:46:49.844> that,<00:46:50.229> that<00:46:50.389> is<00:46:50.566> the<00:46:50.710> big<00:46:50.871> one.

00:46:51.754 --> 00:47:02.218
Um,<00:46:52.331> the<00:46:52.476> other<00:46:52.733> is,<00:46:54.177> so<00:46:54.322> at<00:46:54.643> Contently,<00:46:55.461> we<00:46:56.023> were<00:46:56.408> helping<00:46:56.745> people<00:46:57.066> with<00:46:57.227> freelancers<00:46:57.788> and<00:46:57.949> using,<00:46:58.495> you<00:46:58.527> know,<00:46:59.377> project<00:46:59.634> management<00:47:00.019> tools<00:47:00.501> that<00:47:00.742> helped<00:47:01.079> people<00:47:01.400> with<00:47:01.560> remote<00:47:01.945> teams.

00:47:02.266 --> 00:47:07.162
So<00:47:02.427> we<00:47:02.523> were<00:47:02.700> early<00:47:03.871> to<00:47:04.192> a<00:47:04.208> lot<00:47:04.449> of<00:47:04.594> the<00:47:04.690> things<00:47:04.995> that<00:47:05.171> people<00:47:05.380> had<00:47:05.492> to<00:47:05.589> figure<00:47:05.797> out<00:47:05.894> during<00:47:06.070> the<00:47:06.199> pandemic<00:47:06.536> with<00:47:06.696> remote<00:47:07.001> work.

00:47:07.804 --> 00:47:11.527
Um,<00:47:08.141> but<00:47:08.285> a<00:47:08.301> lot<00:47:08.526> of<00:47:08.606> that<00:47:08.767> is<00:47:08.799> stuff<00:47:09.023> that<00:47:09.168> I'm<00:47:09.425> applying<00:47:09.681> to<00:47:09.762> this,<00:47:09.986> like<00:47:10.131> our<00:47:10.227> headquarters<00:47:10.709> is<00:47:10.805> in<00:47:10.933> Chicago.

00:47:11.736 --> 00:47:13.052
But<00:47:11.832> there's<00:47:11.993> only<00:47:12.137> half<00:47:12.330> a<00:47:12.394> dozen<00:47:12.651> of<00:47:12.779> us<00:47:12.956> there.

00:47:13.133 --> 00:47:23.921
Everyone<00:47:13.422> else<00:47:13.614> is<00:47:13.743> remote<00:47:14.160> and<00:47:14.256> that's<00:47:14.545> fine<00:47:14.947> because<00:47:15.589> we<00:47:15.765> from<00:47:16.006> the<00:47:16.086> beginning<00:47:16.552> put<00:47:16.729> in<00:47:16.953> a<00:47:16.969> lot<00:47:17.194> of,<00:47:17.692> you<00:47:18.190> know,<00:47:18.751> systems<00:47:19.522> and<00:47:20.806> sort<00:47:20.919> of<00:47:21.063> norms,<00:47:21.609> I<00:47:21.705> guess,<00:47:22.251> for<00:47:22.412> making<00:47:22.669> that<00:47:23.455> productive.

00:47:25.221 --> 00:47:26.746
What<00:47:25.382> made<00:47:25.574> you<00:47:25.655> decide<00:47:26.104> on<00:47:26.201> Chicago?

00:47:26.827 --> 00:47:29.861
Because<00:47:27.790> you<00:47:27.950> were<00:47:28.432> content<00:47:28.833> leads<00:47:29.090> in<00:47:29.235> New<00:47:29.315> York,<00:47:29.636> right?

00:47:30.054 --> 00:47:30.214
Yep.

00:47:31.081 --> 00:47:31.418
Yeah.

00:47:31.643 --> 00:47:37.936
So<00:47:32.301> we<00:47:32.397> decided<00:47:32.702> on<00:47:32.783> Chicago<00:47:33.329> because<00:47:34.549> the<00:47:35.191> tax<00:47:35.737> incentives<00:47:36.315> there<00:47:36.555> for<00:47:36.716> films<00:47:37.262> are<00:47:37.358> really<00:47:37.599> good.

00:47:38.145 --> 00:47:41.243
And<00:47:38.241> there's—<00:47:38.707> we<00:47:38.803> got<00:47:39.044> wind<00:47:39.349> that<00:47:39.445> there<00:47:39.590> was<00:47:40.168> going<00:47:40.280> to<00:47:40.328> be<00:47:40.424> a<00:47:40.569> boost<00:47:40.954> in<00:47:41.051> that.

00:47:41.676 --> 00:47:47.002
So<00:47:41.757> a<00:47:41.773> lot<00:47:41.949> of<00:47:42.013> productions<00:47:42.430> are<00:47:42.494> starting<00:47:42.799> to<00:47:43.521> choose<00:47:43.698> Chicago<00:47:44.901> over<00:47:45.286> Atlanta<00:47:45.943> or<00:47:46.328> even<00:47:46.489> over<00:47:46.649> LA.

00:47:47.467 --> 00:47:52.055
And<00:47:47.564> so<00:47:47.708> seeing<00:47:47.949> that<00:47:48.173> growth,<00:47:48.991> we—<00:47:49.553> and<00:47:49.793> also<00:47:50.018> real<00:47:50.114> estate<00:47:50.371> is<00:47:51.301> cheaper<00:47:51.558> than<00:47:51.718> New<00:47:51.863> York.

00:47:52.135 --> 00:47:57.301
So<00:47:52.280> we're<00:47:52.360> like,<00:47:52.520> we<00:47:52.665> want<00:47:52.745> to<00:47:52.841> build<00:47:53.066> out<00:47:53.130> our<00:47:53.306> own<00:47:53.964> showroom,<00:47:54.670> R&D<00:47:55.023> studio<00:47:55.649> that<00:47:55.729> we<00:47:55.809> can<00:47:55.953> show<00:47:56.210> clients<00:47:56.771> these<00:47:56.948> tools.

00:47:58.055 --> 00:48:01.039
Chicago<00:47:58.392> is<00:47:58.536> a<00:47:58.600> cheaper<00:47:58.857> place<00:47:58.969> to<00:47:59.178> do<00:47:59.258> that,<00:47:59.418> but<00:47:59.563> it<00:47:59.643> has<00:47:59.884> all<00:47:59.980> the<00:48:00.060> amenities<00:48:00.477> of<00:48:00.605> a<00:48:00.621> great<00:48:00.862> city.

00:48:01.119 --> 00:48:04.167
It's<00:48:01.263> got<00:48:01.407> a<00:48:01.504> great<00:48:01.744> film<00:48:01.985> community<00:48:02.707> that's<00:48:02.947> growing<00:48:03.493> very<00:48:03.685> fast.

00:48:04.632 --> 00:48:14.465
And<00:48:04.728> so<00:48:04.872> kind<00:48:05.033> of<00:48:05.113> in<00:48:05.193> that<00:48:05.354> liminal<00:48:05.675> space<00:48:06.011> of<00:48:06.140> like<00:48:06.300> you're<00:48:06.412> moving<00:48:06.701> operations<00:48:07.118> to<00:48:07.198> Chicago<00:48:07.600> or<00:48:07.744> you're,<00:48:08.145> you're<00:48:08.482> thinking<00:48:08.867> of,<00:48:09.204> you<00:48:09.300> know,<00:48:09.909> shooting<00:48:10.150> your<00:48:10.310> film<00:48:10.487> there<00:48:10.727> instead<00:48:10.968> of<00:48:11.112> LA,<00:48:11.930> we<00:48:12.091> wanted<00:48:12.412> to<00:48:12.572> be<00:48:12.813> there<00:48:13.117> when<00:48:13.278> people<00:48:13.454> are<00:48:13.599> having<00:48:13.855> that<00:48:14.016> transition.

00:48:14.577 --> 00:48:16.117
And<00:48:14.818> so<00:48:14.914> far<00:48:15.524> it's<00:48:15.684> been<00:48:15.860> great.

00:48:16.245 --> 00:48:26.463
And<00:48:16.662> I<00:48:16.743> mean,<00:48:16.983> the<00:48:17.224> film<00:48:18.122> scene<00:48:18.411> in<00:48:18.491> Chicago,<00:48:18.812> the<00:48:18.908> people<00:48:19.133> there<00:48:19.309> are<00:48:19.470> just<00:48:20.496> lovely,<00:48:21.459> so<00:48:21.956> helpful,<00:48:22.662> even<00:48:22.918> in<00:48:23.095> competitive<00:48:23.576> situations,<00:48:24.201> people<00:48:24.442> are<00:48:24.602> so<00:48:24.843> great,<00:48:25.228> which<00:48:25.404> is<00:48:25.966> refreshing.

00:48:26.543 --> 00:48:37.274
I<00:48:26.688> think<00:48:26.928> in<00:48:27.025> a<00:48:27.073> market<00:48:27.393> like<00:48:27.811> LA,<00:48:28.212> you<00:48:28.356> get<00:48:28.516> a<00:48:28.532> lot<00:48:28.837> more—<00:48:29.800> I<00:48:29.832> mean,<00:48:29.976> people<00:48:30.361> there<00:48:30.537> are<00:48:30.682> awesome,<00:48:31.099> but<00:48:31.259> there's<00:48:31.500> a<00:48:31.644> mixture<00:48:31.965> of<00:48:32.061> cutthroat<00:48:32.462> people<00:48:32.927> in<00:48:33.024> there<00:48:33.264> that<00:48:33.425> makes<00:48:33.665> it<00:48:33.826> hard<00:48:34.066> to—<00:48:34.227> you<00:48:34.275> have<00:48:34.387> to<00:48:34.467> be<00:48:34.531> a<00:48:34.548> little<00:48:34.708> more<00:48:34.868> guarded,<00:48:35.253> I<00:48:35.350> think,<00:48:35.510> that<00:48:35.654> I've<00:48:35.735> found<00:48:35.927> I've<00:48:36.120> had<00:48:36.232> to<00:48:36.312> be<00:48:36.472> in,<00:48:36.793> in<00:48:36.873> Chicago.

00:48:37.819 --> 00:48:39.631
You<00:48:37.851> don't<00:48:37.979> have<00:48:38.140> to<00:48:38.236> figure<00:48:38.460> out<00:48:38.541> whether<00:48:38.733> someone<00:48:39.038> is<00:48:39.118> gonna<00:48:39.278> be<00:48:39.422> helpful.

00:48:39.679 --> 00:48:43.302
They<00:48:39.759> just<00:48:40.064> are,<00:48:40.304> which<00:48:40.561> is<00:48:41.362> generally<00:48:42.565> the<00:48:42.645> case<00:48:42.886> in<00:48:42.966> Chicago.

00:48:43.367 --> 00:48:44.168
And<00:48:43.447> that's<00:48:43.671> been<00:48:43.767> awesome.

00:48:44.954 --> 00:48:54.943
I<00:48:45.034> wonder<00:48:45.371> with<00:48:46.814> Showrunner,<00:48:47.920> cuz<00:48:48.032> not<00:48:48.193> every<00:48:48.417> company,<00:48:49.379> like<00:48:49.684> you<00:48:50.004> said,<00:48:50.181> it's<00:48:50.261> probably<00:48:50.662> a<00:48:50.726> pretty<00:48:50.918> niche<00:48:51.287> market<00:48:51.704> in<00:48:51.784> terms<00:48:51.944> of<00:48:52.089> like<00:48:52.265> who<00:48:52.409> would<00:48:52.650> want<00:48:52.842> a<00:48:52.906> studio<00:48:53.772> or<00:48:53.868> anything<00:48:54.654> like<00:48:54.814> that.

00:48:55.472 --> 00:49:00.170
But<00:48:55.536> a<00:48:55.568> lot<00:48:55.792> of<00:48:55.873> companies<00:48:56.273> are<00:48:56.354> building<00:48:56.738> like<00:48:57.155> podcast<00:48:57.572> studios<00:48:57.957> and<00:48:58.101> want<00:48:58.262> like<00:48:58.438> really<00:48:58.839> nice<00:48:59.240> podcast<00:48:59.753> studios.

00:49:00.586 --> 00:49:03.104
Is<00:49:00.747> that<00:49:00.987> like<00:49:01.148> something<00:49:01.548> that<00:49:01.709> you<00:49:02.446> guys<00:49:02.623> are<00:49:02.767> thinking<00:49:02.975> about?

00:49:03.168 --> 00:49:08.753
Well,<00:49:03.328> maybe<00:49:03.649> we<00:49:03.729> could<00:49:03.889> help<00:49:04.130> them<00:49:04.290> with<00:49:04.450> their<00:49:04.611> film<00:49:04.980> film<00:49:05.879> and<00:49:07.003> audio<00:49:07.436> studio<00:49:07.982> within<00:49:08.367> companies?

00:49:08.817 --> 00:49:10.567
Because<00:49:08.945> I<00:49:09.026> feel<00:49:09.170> like<00:49:09.266> there<00:49:09.411> would<00:49:09.507> be<00:49:09.652> a<00:49:09.732> big<00:49:09.973> market<00:49:10.294> there.

00:49:11.113 --> 00:49:11.916
Yeah,<00:49:11.434> absolutely.

00:49:11.996 --> 00:49:15.303
So<00:49:12.301> audio<00:49:12.574> is<00:49:12.718> a<00:49:12.799> category<00:49:13.361> that<00:49:13.521> we<00:49:14.163> are<00:49:14.340> doing<00:49:14.966> right<00:49:15.191> now.

00:49:15.432 --> 00:49:25.723
The<00:49:15.528> tools<00:49:15.913> are,<00:49:16.475> you<00:49:16.507> know,<00:49:16.652> are<00:49:16.796> pretty<00:49:17.053> basic,<00:49:17.696> but<00:49:19.044> audio<00:49:20.024> tools<00:49:20.569> for<00:49:20.826> filmmaking<00:49:21.404> in<00:49:21.533> particular<00:49:22.416> are,<00:49:22.914> you<00:49:23.010> know,<00:49:23.476> a<00:49:23.620> big<00:49:23.797> piece<00:49:24.583> of<00:49:25.081> the<00:49:25.161> roadmap.

00:49:26.430 --> 00:49:32.144
Corporate<00:49:26.767> studios<00:49:27.313> have<00:49:27.473> actually<00:49:27.730> been<00:49:27.907> surprisingly<00:49:29.320> a<00:49:30.203> big<00:49:30.395> source<00:49:30.781> of<00:49:31.503> leads<00:49:31.807> for<00:49:31.904> us.

00:49:32.224 --> 00:49:40.788
And<00:49:32.465> we<00:49:32.609> have<00:49:32.770> some<00:49:33.652> really<00:49:33.908> good<00:49:34.085> stuff<00:49:34.309> going<00:49:34.694> with,<00:49:35.752> yeah,<00:49:35.977> I<00:49:35.993> mean,<00:49:36.217> a<00:49:36.234> lot<00:49:36.410> of<00:49:36.474> corporations<00:49:37.099> are<00:49:37.998> realizing<00:49:38.463> they<00:49:38.559> can<00:49:38.799> do<00:49:39.377> certainly<00:49:39.762> social<00:49:40.162> video<00:49:40.483> in-house.

00:49:40.852 --> 00:49:48.694
You<00:49:40.900> don't<00:49:41.028> have<00:49:41.205> to<00:49:41.285> always<00:49:41.590> take<00:49:41.782> it<00:49:41.846> to<00:49:41.943> someone<00:49:42.135> else's<00:49:42.392> studio<00:49:43.129> or<00:49:43.626> take<00:49:43.851> it<00:49:43.931> to<00:49:44.011> an<00:49:44.091> agency,<00:49:44.589> or<00:49:44.717> you<00:49:44.797> could<00:49:44.877> have<00:49:45.038> your<00:49:45.134> agency<00:49:45.856> come<00:49:46.096> to<00:49:46.240> your<00:49:46.433> studio,<00:49:46.978> which<00:49:47.283> is<00:49:47.379> branded<00:49:47.780> like<00:49:47.940> you<00:49:48.085> want<00:49:48.261> and<00:49:48.405> all<00:49:48.502> that.

00:49:49.159 --> 00:49:50.121
So<00:49:49.223> there's<00:49:49.448> more<00:49:49.608> and<00:49:49.656> more<00:49:49.785> of<00:49:49.865> that.

00:49:50.250 --> 00:49:53.441
There's<00:49:50.522> more<00:49:51.212> creative<00:49:51.468> agencies<00:49:51.933> that<00:49:52.030> are<00:49:52.110> building<00:49:52.431> their<00:49:52.575> own<00:49:52.671> in-house<00:49:52.928> studios.

00:49:54.098 --> 00:49:56.969
And<00:49:54.259> more<00:49:54.515> of<00:49:54.660> those<00:49:54.996> are<00:49:55.077> considering<00:49:55.878> the<00:49:56.119> LED<00:49:56.440> wall<00:49:56.616> thing.

00:49:57.563 --> 00:49:58.879
The<00:49:57.643> virtual<00:49:57.884> production,<00:49:58.365> which<00:49:58.542> is<00:49:58.670> great.

00:49:59.489 --> 00:50:07.481
So<00:49:59.793> there<00:49:59.986> is,<00:50:01.238> yeah,<00:50:01.334> for<00:50:01.559> us,<00:50:01.735> the<00:50:01.960> corporates<00:50:02.297> that<00:50:02.442> we're<00:50:02.602> working<00:50:02.843> with<00:50:03.003> right<00:50:03.100> now<00:50:04.207> are,<00:50:04.624> none<00:50:04.769> of<00:50:04.865> them<00:50:05.090> are<00:50:05.347> virtual<00:50:05.652> production<00:50:07.128> studios.

00:50:07.529 --> 00:50:13.724
So<00:50:07.658> it's<00:50:07.754> just<00:50:07.898> like<00:50:07.995> regular,<00:50:08.958> your<00:50:09.102> marketing<00:50:09.519> team<00:50:09.985> has<00:50:10.322> the<00:50:10.707> iPad<00:50:10.948> where<00:50:11.028> they're<00:50:11.189> controlling<00:50:11.606> things,<00:50:13.131> that<00:50:13.307> sort<00:50:13.452> of<00:50:13.596> thing.

00:50:14.960 --> 00:50:16.597
But<00:50:15.057> I<00:50:15.217> think<00:50:15.378> there's<00:50:15.538> going<00:50:15.650> to<00:50:15.779> be<00:50:15.859> some<00:50:16.100> growth<00:50:16.421> there.

00:50:16.742 --> 00:50:22.969
And<00:50:17.063> I'm<00:50:17.448> interested<00:50:17.865> in,<00:50:18.648> I<00:50:18.668> mean,<00:50:18.892> every<00:50:19.069> podcast<00:50:19.550> now,<00:50:19.871> it<00:50:19.952> seems<00:50:20.208> like,<00:50:21.155> has<00:50:21.460> a<00:50:21.541> video<00:50:21.781> component<00:50:22.279> or<00:50:22.584> should.

00:50:23.643 --> 00:50:31.640
So<00:50:24.045> doing,<00:50:25.313> making<00:50:25.570> that<00:50:25.955> easier,<00:50:26.453> smoother,<00:50:27.401> higher<00:50:27.657> production<00:50:28.059> value,<00:50:28.846> I<00:50:28.942> think<00:50:29.119> is<00:50:29.263> certainly<00:50:29.681> a<00:50:29.986> thing<00:50:30.789> that<00:50:31.110> we<00:50:31.190> could<00:50:31.350> get<00:50:31.511> into.

00:50:31.720 --> 00:50:31.768
Yeah.

00:50:33.020 --> 00:50:37.966
I<00:50:33.181> would've<00:50:33.358> never<00:50:33.598> thought<00:50:33.823> that<00:50:33.920> people<00:50:34.225> would<00:50:34.305> want<00:50:34.401> to<00:50:34.562> watch<00:50:35.027> two<00:50:35.188> people<00:50:35.461> talking,<00:50:36.794> listening<00:50:37.147> to<00:50:37.275> two<00:50:37.452> people<00:50:37.677> talking.

00:50:38.014 --> 00:50:44.196
I<00:50:38.094> got,<00:50:38.415> but<00:50:38.560> like<00:50:38.753> the<00:50:38.881> fact<00:50:39.122> that<00:50:39.202> podcasts<00:50:39.684> have<00:50:39.844> really<00:50:40.422> taken<00:50:40.728> off<00:50:40.984> on<00:50:41.129> YouTube<00:50:41.466> and<00:50:41.546> other<00:50:41.707> places<00:50:43.056> is<00:50:43.297> pretty<00:50:43.554> incredible.

00:50:44.822 --> 00:50:47.359
I<00:50:45.561> guess<00:50:45.801> I<00:50:45.817> have<00:50:46.347> two<00:50:46.508> final<00:50:46.765> questions<00:50:47.166> for<00:50:47.311> you.

00:50:47.552 --> 00:51:00.108
One<00:50:48.033> is,<00:50:49.157> you<00:50:49.238> mentioned<00:50:49.639> this<00:50:49.832> a<00:50:49.896> little<00:50:50.137> bit<00:50:50.378> as<00:50:50.522> you're<00:50:50.618> building<00:50:50.940> Showrunner<00:50:52.064> and<00:50:52.208> you<00:50:52.288> have<00:50:52.465> like<00:50:52.642> these<00:50:53.171> distributed<00:50:53.814> teams,<00:50:54.231> you<00:50:54.327> have<00:50:54.472> some<00:50:54.713> people<00:50:55.500> in<00:50:55.676> the<00:50:55.821> office<00:50:56.238> in<00:50:56.319> Chicago,<00:50:57.378> some<00:50:57.587> people<00:50:57.844> kind<00:50:58.390> of<00:50:59.144> throughout<00:50:59.466> the<00:50:59.610> world.

00:51:00.557 --> 00:51:03.544
How<00:51:00.734> do<00:51:00.814> you<00:51:00.959> think<00:51:01.360> like<00:51:02.404> all<00:51:02.500> of<00:51:02.661> this<00:51:02.821> shakes<00:51:03.287> out?

00:51:03.624 --> 00:51:07.012
'Cause<00:51:03.785> post-pandemic,<00:51:04.491> this<00:51:04.668> is,<00:51:05.471> we're<00:51:05.615> in<00:51:05.647> a<00:51:05.712> completely<00:51:06.129> different<00:51:06.498> world.

00:51:07.654 --> 00:51:10.818
Most<00:51:07.960> tech<00:51:08.120> companies,<00:51:08.586> you<00:51:08.618> know,<00:51:08.746> used<00:51:08.939> to<00:51:09.003> require<00:51:09.629> you<00:51:09.726> be<00:51:10.127> in<00:51:10.207> the<00:51:10.368> office.

00:51:10.930 --> 00:51:13.676
That's<00:51:11.476> no<00:51:11.797> longer<00:51:12.118> the<00:51:12.215> case<00:51:12.600> for<00:51:13.001> a<00:51:13.082> lot<00:51:13.274> of<00:51:13.403> them.

00:51:14.588 --> 00:51:15.841
How<00:51:14.734> do<00:51:14.816> you<00:51:14.913> think<00:51:15.157> all<00:51:15.385> this<00:51:15.467> shakes<00:51:15.792> out?

00:51:15.890 --> 00:51:17.062
Do<00:51:15.939> you<00:51:16.036> think<00:51:16.215> this<00:51:16.378> is<00:51:16.525> the<00:51:16.557> new<00:51:16.785> normal?

00:51:18.970 --> 00:51:20.036
Yeah,<00:51:19.341> hard<00:51:19.551> to<00:51:19.632> predict.

00:51:20.375 --> 00:51:21.909
I<00:51:20.536> think<00:51:20.762> it<00:51:20.843> should<00:51:21.166> be<00:51:21.344> the<00:51:21.441> new<00:51:21.521> normal.

00:51:22.701 --> 00:51:29.233
I<00:51:22.878> also<00:51:23.185> think<00:51:23.443> the<00:51:23.589> decision,<00:51:25.747> kind<00:51:26.004> of<00:51:26.229> like<00:51:26.470> the<00:51:26.646> decision<00:51:27.032> about<00:51:27.289> like,<00:51:27.450> should<00:51:27.610> you<00:51:27.771> ban<00:51:28.092> talk<00:51:28.317> of<00:51:28.397> politics<00:51:28.879> at<00:51:28.976> work?

00:51:29.940 --> 00:51:34.534
I<00:51:29.956> think<00:51:30.165> the<00:51:30.245> decision<00:51:30.663> should<00:51:30.984> be<00:51:31.145> a<00:51:31.305> bespoke<00:51:31.787> one<00:51:32.815> based<00:51:33.217> on<00:51:33.651> some<00:51:33.876> principles.

00:51:34.615 --> 00:51:37.386
And<00:51:34.695> I<00:51:34.904> think<00:51:35.161> one<00:51:35.290> of<00:51:35.386> those<00:51:35.709> is<00:51:35.870> what<00:51:36.031> is<00:51:36.128> the<00:51:36.225> nature<00:51:36.531> of<00:51:36.676> the<00:51:36.757> work<00:51:36.950> you're<00:51:37.096> doing?

00:51:37.483 --> 00:51:39.127
What's<00:51:37.644> the<00:51:37.676> nature<00:51:37.918> of<00:51:37.982> the<00:51:38.128> collaboration<00:51:38.708> you're<00:51:38.853> doing?

00:51:39.676 --> 00:51:42.868
So<00:51:39.772> in<00:51:39.901> our<00:51:39.998> case,<00:51:40.240> we<00:51:40.385> do<00:51:40.546> have<00:51:40.724> a<00:51:40.869> hardware<00:51:41.369> integration<00:51:41.917> component<00:51:42.481> to<00:51:42.562> our<00:51:42.739> business.

00:51:43.717 --> 00:51:52.030
Which<00:51:43.894> means<00:51:44.118> we<00:51:44.167> either<00:51:44.295> got<00:51:44.407> to<00:51:44.455> ship<00:51:44.841> you<00:51:44.937> expensive<00:51:45.402> hardware<00:51:45.723> or<00:51:45.755> you<00:51:45.900> got<00:51:46.044> to<00:51:46.140> be<00:51:46.317> in<00:51:46.445> Chicago<00:51:47.569> or<00:51:47.890> you<00:51:47.986> come<00:51:48.227> once<00:51:48.483> a<00:51:48.532> month<00:51:48.933> with<00:51:49.430> the<00:51:49.575> rest<00:51:49.751> of<00:51:49.815> the<00:51:49.896> team<00:51:50.072> that's<00:51:50.249> remote<00:51:51.597> to<00:51:51.741> do<00:51:51.853> that.

00:51:52.094 --> 00:51:55.384
So<00:51:53.137> certain<00:51:53.442> businesses<00:51:53.924> will<00:51:54.020> have<00:51:54.245> those<00:51:54.485> constraints<00:51:54.967> naturally.

00:51:55.673 --> 00:52:01.386
And<00:51:55.849> I<00:51:56.170> think<00:51:56.411> you<00:51:56.491> shouldn't<00:51:56.876> fight<00:51:57.358> those<00:51:58.561> just<00:51:58.818> to<00:51:58.979> be<00:51:59.861> egalitarian<00:52:00.503> about<00:52:00.824> being<00:52:00.985> remote.

00:52:01.691 --> 00:52:09.939
It's<00:52:02.349> a<00:52:02.509> practical<00:52:03.071> thing,<00:52:03.215> like<00:52:03.376> how<00:52:03.536> are<00:52:03.697> we<00:52:03.793> going<00:52:03.873> to<00:52:03.953> work<00:52:04.194> best<00:52:04.660> and<00:52:04.820> what<00:52:04.868> do<00:52:04.981> we<00:52:05.077> need<00:52:05.237> people<00:52:06.441> to<00:52:06.682> do<00:52:06.986> from<00:52:07.227> a<00:52:08.110> location<00:52:08.607> standpoint<00:52:09.008> in<00:52:09.153> order<00:52:09.329> to<00:52:09.554> work<00:52:09.731> best?

00:52:11.640 --> 00:52:19.630
I<00:52:11.736> think<00:52:12.218> the,<00:52:12.603> that<00:52:12.763> the<00:52:12.923> thing<00:52:13.100> that<00:52:13.405> needs<00:52:13.726> to<00:52:13.902> be<00:52:15.490> solved<00:52:16.309> or<00:52:16.710> we<00:52:16.854> need<00:52:17.063> to<00:52:17.255> collectively<00:52:17.753> get<00:52:17.977> better<00:52:18.298> at<00:52:18.539> is<00:52:18.715> the<00:52:18.860> meetings<00:52:19.437> thing.

00:52:20.817 --> 00:52:30.748
Remote<00:52:21.346> meetings<00:52:22.389> can<00:52:22.550> take<00:52:22.742> up<00:52:22.887> so<00:52:23.192> much<00:52:23.512> time<00:52:23.705> of<00:52:23.769> the<00:52:23.930> day<00:52:24.411> and<00:52:24.491> can<00:52:24.652> be<00:52:24.732> so<00:52:24.972> draining<00:52:25.438> and<00:52:25.598> being<00:52:25.919> on,<00:52:26.400> you<00:52:26.432> know,<00:52:26.657> on<00:52:26.817> a<00:52:26.882> video<00:52:27.219> call<00:52:27.604> all<00:52:27.844> day<00:52:28.085> long<00:52:28.662> and<00:52:28.727> not<00:52:28.887> having<00:52:29.128> work<00:52:29.304> to<00:52:29.786> time<00:52:29.962> to<00:52:30.106> do<00:52:30.267> your<00:52:30.492> work.

00:52:32.192 --> 00:52:44.597
That's,<00:52:33.379> I<00:52:33.556> think<00:52:34.117> from<00:52:34.422> what<00:52:34.599> I've<00:52:34.775> seen,<00:52:35.610> statistics-wise<00:52:36.926> and<00:52:37.166> what<00:52:37.391> I'm<00:52:37.664> sensing<00:52:38.129> in<00:52:38.210> my<00:52:38.450> own<00:52:38.755> world,<00:52:39.638> uh,<00:52:39.959> a—<00:52:40.761> there's<00:52:41.002> more<00:52:41.163> time<00:52:41.419> being<00:52:41.580> sucked<00:52:41.885> up<00:52:41.997> into<00:52:42.158> that<00:52:42.463> than<00:52:42.864> in-person<00:52:43.345> meetings<00:52:43.666> were<00:52:43.811> taking<00:52:44.148> before<00:52:44.469> this.

00:52:45.047 --> 00:52:51.707
I<00:52:45.111> think<00:52:45.223> because<00:52:45.432> it's<00:52:45.576> just<00:52:45.753> so<00:52:45.929> available,<00:52:46.475> like,<00:52:46.716> we<00:52:46.876> can<00:52:47.502> always<00:52:47.839> do<00:52:48.465> a<00:52:48.545> video<00:52:48.802> call,<00:52:49.749> um,<00:52:50.391> even<00:52:50.632> when<00:52:50.808> an<00:52:50.969> email<00:52:51.354> would<00:52:51.531> do.

00:52:51.836 --> 00:53:03.175
And<00:52:51.932> in<00:52:52.028> the<00:52:52.237> office,<00:52:53.200> sure,<00:52:53.537> there's<00:52:53.697> a<00:52:53.713> lot<00:52:53.858> of<00:52:54.002> useless<00:52:54.339> meetings,<00:52:54.676> there's<00:52:54.821> a<00:52:54.965> lot<00:52:55.062> of<00:52:55.142> unnecessary<00:52:55.704> meetings,<00:52:56.666> but<00:52:56.891> this<00:52:57.132> default<00:52:57.613> to<00:52:57.790> the<00:52:57.870> Zoom<00:52:58.191> call,<00:52:59.138> um,<00:53:00.053> I<00:53:00.197> think<00:53:00.374> is<00:53:00.679> something<00:53:01.000> we<00:53:01.096> need<00:53:01.305> to<00:53:02.224> get<00:53:02.385> better<00:53:02.627> at<00:53:02.708> collectively.

00:53:03.336 --> 00:53:07.351
Or<00:53:04.062> a<00:53:04.143> conclusion<00:53:04.562> might<00:53:04.739> be,<00:53:04.949> let's<00:53:05.432> have<00:53:05.593> the<00:53:05.674> pendulum<00:53:06.029> swing,<00:53:06.399> everyone<00:53:06.657> get<00:53:06.819> in<00:53:06.899> the<00:53:07.060> office.

00:53:08.011 --> 00:53:09.317
We're<00:53:08.092> spending<00:53:08.350> too<00:53:08.495> much<00:53:08.672> time<00:53:08.914> on<00:53:09.075> video.

00:53:09.575 --> 00:53:11.107
I<00:53:09.591> don't<00:53:09.962> think<00:53:10.123> that's<00:53:10.365> the<00:53:10.462> right<00:53:10.526> choice<00:53:10.849> either.

00:53:13.103 --> 00:53:17.862
My<00:53:13.248> final<00:53:13.507> question<00:53:13.815> for<00:53:13.977> you,<00:53:14.301> and<00:53:14.365> I'm<00:53:14.479> really<00:53:14.738> interested<00:53:15.110> in<00:53:15.207> this<00:53:15.612> when<00:53:15.757> it<00:53:15.790> comes<00:53:16.033> to<00:53:16.162> you,<00:53:16.356> is<00:53:16.567> what<00:53:16.729> your<00:53:16.907> day<00:53:17.214> looks<00:53:17.538> like.

00:53:17.943 --> 00:53:24.106
Like<00:53:18.428> when<00:53:18.590> you<00:53:18.687> wake<00:53:18.930> up,<00:53:19.189> like,<00:53:19.982> I<00:53:20.031> wonder<00:53:20.290> how<00:53:20.322> much<00:53:20.646> time<00:53:20.873> you<00:53:20.953> spend<00:53:21.342> writing,<00:53:22.050> how<00:53:22.082> much<00:53:22.309> your<00:53:22.406> time—<00:53:22.649> like,<00:53:22.892> like,<00:53:23.118> what<00:53:23.167> does<00:53:23.361> your<00:53:23.458> day<00:53:23.685> look<00:53:23.928> like?

00:53:24.738 --> 00:53:26.989
Yeah,<00:53:25.142> generally<00:53:26.049> every<00:53:26.211> once<00:53:26.373> in<00:53:26.438> a<00:53:26.454> while<00:53:26.519> I<00:53:26.535> have<00:53:26.697> to<00:53:26.843> reset.

00:53:28.336 --> 00:53:29.523
Kind<00:53:28.448> of<00:53:28.978> the<00:53:29.138> routine.

00:53:30.116 --> 00:53:32.730
But<00:53:30.260> generally<00:53:30.742> I<00:53:30.838> wake<00:53:31.078> up<00:53:31.223> between<00:53:31.736> 6<00:53:32.041> and<00:53:32.121> 6:30.

00:53:33.404 --> 00:53:39.305
I<00:53:33.548> will<00:53:33.724> immediately<00:53:34.270> go<00:53:34.526> to<00:53:34.590> the<00:53:34.687> coffee<00:53:35.007> shop<00:53:35.248> downstairs<00:53:35.729> if<00:53:35.873> I'm<00:53:36.130> home<00:53:36.515> or,<00:53:37.637> you<00:53:37.685> know,<00:53:37.830> someplace<00:53:38.359> like<00:53:38.535> that<00:53:38.696> if<00:53:38.792> I'm<00:53:38.936> traveling.

00:53:39.963 --> 00:53:47.163
And<00:53:40.299> I<00:53:40.444> journal<00:53:41.566> and<00:53:41.839> I'll—<00:53:42.929> if<00:53:43.090> I<00:53:43.186> have<00:53:43.362> a<00:53:43.507> writing<00:53:43.811> project<00:53:44.084> I'm<00:53:44.228> working<00:53:44.613> on,<00:53:44.886> I'll<00:53:45.175> make<00:53:45.287> some<00:53:45.431> progress<00:53:45.752> on<00:53:45.912> that<00:53:46.169> or<00:53:46.233> if<00:53:46.329> I'm<00:53:46.474> trying<00:53:46.618> to<00:53:46.714> learn<00:53:46.891> something.

00:53:47.211 --> 00:53:48.991
So<00:53:47.340> like<00:53:47.516> generally<00:53:47.837> an<00:53:47.981> hour<00:53:48.157> to<00:53:48.238> an<00:53:48.382> hour<00:53:48.558> and<00:53:48.606> a<00:53:48.623> half<00:53:48.879> there.

00:53:49.825 --> 00:53:54.043
And<00:53:49.905> then<00:53:50.547> if<00:53:50.707> I'm<00:53:51.686> being<00:53:52.327> diligent,<00:53:52.872> I<00:53:52.952> will<00:53:53.209> then<00:53:53.514> go<00:53:53.610> to<00:53:53.706> the<00:53:53.834> gym.

00:53:54.300 --> 00:53:57.396
And<00:53:54.428> if<00:53:54.572> not,<00:53:54.813> I<00:53:54.973> will<00:53:55.455> go<00:53:55.631> straight<00:53:56.032> to<00:53:57.139> work.

00:53:57.460 --> 00:54:01.775
But<00:53:57.685> I<00:53:58.086> have<00:53:58.262> blocked<00:53:58.647> off<00:53:58.807> that<00:53:58.920> my<00:53:59.144> mornings<00:53:59.642> typically<00:54:00.412> are<00:54:01.374> deep<00:54:01.615> work.

00:54:02.674 --> 00:54:06.813
And<00:54:03.139> after<00:54:03.572> noon<00:54:04.519> local<00:54:04.840> time<00:54:05.642> is<00:54:05.802> when<00:54:05.963> I<00:54:06.043> can<00:54:06.203> do<00:54:06.364> meetings.

00:54:07.069 --> 00:54:09.428
And<00:54:07.326> then<00:54:07.631> I<00:54:07.743> stopped<00:54:08.064> doing<00:54:08.289> meetings<00:54:08.834> at<00:54:08.995> 5.

00:54:09.893 --> 00:54:14.946
And<00:54:09.989> then<00:54:10.118> I<00:54:10.214> will<00:54:10.358> generally<00:54:10.936> do<00:54:11.176> like<00:54:11.417> an<00:54:11.658> hour<00:54:11.834> or<00:54:12.155> so<00:54:12.604> of<00:54:12.765> the<00:54:12.861> follow-ups<00:54:13.326> that<00:54:13.422> those<00:54:13.583> meetings<00:54:13.904> generate.

00:54:15.171 --> 00:54:16.968
I<00:54:15.187> would<00:54:15.428> love<00:54:15.813> to<00:54:15.877> have<00:54:16.134> more<00:54:16.246> time<00:54:16.487> for<00:54:16.631> deep<00:54:16.856> work.

00:54:17.032 --> 00:54:23.080
But<00:54:17.176> as<00:54:17.289> CEO<00:54:17.738> of<00:54:17.770> a<00:54:17.834> company,<00:54:18.540> you<00:54:18.620> know,<00:54:19.118> the<00:54:19.262> nature<00:54:19.583> of<00:54:19.679> my<00:54:19.839> job<00:54:20.096> is<00:54:20.305> I'm<00:54:21.043> delegating<00:54:21.604> and<00:54:21.749> communicating<00:54:22.647> and<00:54:22.807> meeting.

00:54:23.690 --> 00:54:30.861
But<00:54:23.914> I<00:54:24.957> deliberately<00:54:25.840> do<00:54:26.016> not<00:54:26.337> let<00:54:26.497> that<00:54:26.658> be<00:54:26.802> my<00:54:27.043> entire<00:54:27.460> day<00:54:27.845> any<00:54:28.022> day<00:54:28.166> of<00:54:28.278> the<00:54:28.407> week<00:54:29.145> because<00:54:29.530> there<00:54:29.706> is<00:54:29.867> also<00:54:30.107> deep<00:54:30.332> work<00:54:30.508> to<00:54:30.589> be<00:54:30.669> done.

00:54:31.022 --> 00:54:33.444
So<00:54:31.134> that's<00:54:32.289> so<00:54:32.498> far<00:54:32.658> so<00:54:32.835> good.

00:54:34.343 --> 00:54:35.370
I<00:54:34.439> think<00:54:34.615> that's<00:54:34.824> great<00:54:35.001> advice.

00:54:36.348 --> 00:54:38.097
Shane,<00:54:36.829> thanks<00:54:37.070> so<00:54:37.150> much<00:54:37.487> for<00:54:37.632> coming<00:54:37.888> on.

00:54:38.273 --> 00:54:39.910
It's<00:54:38.674> such<00:54:38.787> a<00:54:38.851> pleasure<00:54:39.124> to<00:54:39.236> talk<00:54:39.637> to<00:54:39.717> you.

00:54:40.215 --> 00:54:44.418
And<00:54:40.840> I<00:54:41.017> encourage<00:54:41.482> everyone<00:54:41.739> to<00:54:41.803> go<00:54:41.883> to<00:54:41.963> shanesnow.com,<00:54:43.824> read<00:54:44.049> your<00:54:44.145> writing.

00:54:44.466 --> 00:54:49.217
You<00:54:44.546> have<00:54:44.771> one<00:54:44.947> in<00:54:45.028> particular<00:54:45.589> about<00:54:45.926> how<00:54:46.071> the<00:54:46.151> CEO<00:54:46.536> The<00:54:46.729> CIA<00:54:47.355> created<00:54:47.676> the<00:54:47.772> original<00:54:48.238> fake<00:54:48.543> news<00:54:48.800> network.

00:54:49.908 --> 00:54:54.147
And<00:54:49.988> I<00:54:50.149> just<00:54:50.357> think<00:54:50.646> that<00:54:50.887> is<00:54:50.984> such<00:54:51.224> a<00:54:51.369> beautiful,<00:54:52.397> in-depth<00:54:53.071> investigative<00:54:53.777> story.

00:54:55.046 --> 00:54:56.170
People<00:54:55.303> should<00:54:55.463> go<00:54:55.688> read<00:54:55.929> that.

00:54:56.330 --> 00:54:58.209
And<00:54:56.668> good<00:54:56.892> luck<00:54:57.069> on<00:54:57.213> everything,<00:54:57.647> my<00:54:57.872> friend.

00:54:58.337 --> 00:54:58.675
Thank<00:54:58.514> you.

00:54:58.771 --> 00:54:59.702
It's<00:54:59.156> been<00:54:59.253> a<00:54:59.317> pleasure.

00:54:59.799 --> 00:55:01.420
Thank<00:54:59.975> you<00:55:00.104> for<00:55:00.184> your<00:55:00.425> interest<00:55:00.762> and<00:55:00.907> curiosity.

00:55:01.565 --> 00:55:03.668
And<00:55:02.512> yeah,<00:55:02.849> so<00:55:02.994> flattered<00:55:03.267> to<00:55:03.395> be<00:55:03.556> here.

00:55:03.813 --> 00:55:06.462
And<00:55:04.359> yeah,<00:55:04.551> appreciate<00:55:05.499> it.

```