> ## Content Index > Fetch the complete content index at: https://www.ceo.com/llms.txt > Use this file to discover other available public pages before exploring further. # Optoro CEO Amena Ali - URL: https://www.ceo.com/episodes/optoro-ceo-amena-ali/ - Published: 2024-07-18T12:00:02.000Z - Updated: 2026-08-30T00:27:45.000Z - Description: Amena Ali took over Optoro from its founders at 58, rebuilt it as a software company, and sold it in under three years. - Author: Clint Betts # Play the tape in reverse Amena Ali took the top job at Optoro in [December 2022](https://www.optoro.com/returns-news/optoro-appoints-amena-ali-as-chief-executive-officer/?ref=ceo.com). The two founders had run it for 15 years. She was 58\. By [August 2025](https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20250818415001/en/Blue-Yonder-Acquires-Optoro-to-Further-Transform-Returns-Management-and-Extend-Capabilities?ref=ceo.com), the company was sold to Blue Yonder, a supply chain software company on an acquisition streak, for a price nobody has disclosed. That is the whole arc, and it is one she has run before. Ali ran VividCortex, a database monitoring company, when [SolarWinds bought it](https://investors.solarwinds.com/news/news-details/2019/SolarWinds-Set-to-Cover-the-Databases-Through-Acquisition-of-VividCortex-and-Introduction-of-New-Monitoring-Solution-Designed-for-Cloud-Native-Databases/default.aspx?ref=ceo.com) in December 2019 for [$117.5 million](https://www.solarwinds.com/blog/thoughts-on-the-vividcortex-acquisition?ref=ceo.com). She then ran Airside Mobile, a digital identity company, which [sold to Onfido](https://www.entrust.com/company/newsroom/onfido-acquires-airside?ref=ceo.com) in May 2023, five months after she had moved on. "This is my third company as a CEO, where I've come in specifically when the company's at a juncture, when it's ready to be scaled, to take over from the founders and really grow the business," she told the CEO.com Podcast. She said it the way someone describes a trade they have mastered. Optoro's trade is returns. Ali admitted she had never thought about the subject before she took the job. Most people haven't. You order a jacket, it doesn't fit, you send it back, and the transaction ends for you. For the retailer, it has just begun. "When you play that tape in reverse, just like the tape would sound kind of funny, you've got a whole other situation," Ali said. Apparel and footwear come back at a rate of 30 percent. Around $750 billion of goods were returned in 2023\. Each item lands in a warehouse in front of an hourly worker who has to decide whether it is still new; a shirt that's new is not new for a coffee maker. Optoro's software makes that decision for the worker, then decides where the item goes: back on the shelf, to repair, to a liquidator, to a flea market, to a charity. The customers are Gap, American Eagle, Best Buy. The pitch is that anything less rigorous means throwing away 30 percent of revenue and filling a landfill. Retailers cannot simply stop accepting returns, because shoppers read the policy before they buy. "You want to shop with confidence," Ali said. The part of the interview worth listening to is fraud. Return fraud roughly doubled in a few years, Ali said, to more than 11 percent of returned goods, about $101 billion a year. Some of it is "wardrobing," wearing a dress to the party and mailing it back Monday. Some of it is the box of rocks. The obvious response is to inspect everything. Ali thinks that is a mistake. It costs a fortune and makes every honest customer pay for the dishonest ones. Her alternative is a trust score. The system knows how you shop and how you return, and it treats you accordingly. She compared it to boarding an airplane: diamond, platinum, group five. "How do you make sure that the bad guys' experience is confined to them and everyone else can transact?" She also reached for the old New Yorker cartoon. On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog. The retailer's problem is figuring out who is a dog and who isn't. Ali likes a parable. She quoted Stephen Covey's jar of rocks on prioritization and the proverb about going fast alone or far together. Optoro's four values, which she recited in full, are to make an impact, go far together, shed more light than heat, and enjoy the journey. She lingered on the third. "We really want to bring rationality, data, perspective, and judgment. Rather than just blind anger and emotion, I feel like there's way too much of that in our country." She reads the Journal and the Times every morning and was partway through *The Other Wes Moore*, which she got in a bag of books Jamie Dimon handed out at a conference. Her husband, a 30-year startup veteran, had just retired and written a guide for employees called *The Startup Lottery* on how to tell whether a startup will pay off. Her own record suggests she can tell. The interview cannot answer what Blue Yonder was buying, because it was recorded before the sale. Ali spent much of the hour describing the disposition engine that now instructs warehouse robots which channel to route an item to, and the machine vision that checks whether the sweatpants in the box are the hoodie on the label. That is the technology. Blue Yonder has since [set up a Commerce and Returns business unit](https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20251106168427/en/Blue-Yonder-Releases-Q3-2025-Company-Highlights-and-Showcases-Q4-2025-Industry-Insights?ref=ceo.com) and promoted its head of returns, the executive quoted announcing the Optoro deal, to run it. Ali's [own summary](https://www.linkedin.com/in/amenaali/?ref=ceo.com) of what she did in under three years: made returns easier, expanded partnerships, turned Optoro into a SaaS company. That is the founder's company rebuilt into something a strategic acquirer could price. Before software, Ali spent 10 years in finance and marketing at a telecom and, before that, was a consultant at Bain. [She has held](https://www.optoro.com/leadership/amena-ali/?ref=ceo.com) senior roles at Legato, Softek, and Earth Networks and has served on the board of Liquibase. Forbes put her on its [50 Over 50](https://www.forbes.com/profile/amena-ali/?ref=ceo.com) list in 2023\. [Entrepreneur profiled her](https://www.entrepreneur.com/leadership/she-leads-a-business-thats-making-online-returns-easier/481403?ref=ceo.com) the following year. The CEO.com Podcast ends every conversation with the same question: who gave you a chance? Ali went back to the day she left telecom for storage software, an industry she knew nothing about, because someone decided to bet on her anyway. "Ultimately, mechanical skills are easy to get," she said, "but having that kind of confidence and taking a chance on a person and their character is ultimately not only what'll pay off for you but what'll be hugely valuable as you see that person go forth." ```chapters 00:00:00 Introduction to Amena Ali and Optoro 00:00:53 Amena's 25-Year Journey to CEO 00:02:01 What Optoro Does in Reverse Logistics 00:03:14 Machine Learning in Managing Returns 00:07:10 Return Policies and Consumer Behavior 00:10:15 AI's Broader Role in Customer Experience 00:14:37 Preventing Fraud in Returns 00:18:36 Prioritizing Time and Impact as CEO 00:20:18 Reading Recommendations and Influential Books 00:23:11 Defining Culture at Optoro 00:25:48 Leadership Amid a Divided World 00:29:21 The Role of Empathy in Leadership 00:31:22 Closing Thoughts and Thanks ``` ```vtt WEBVTT 00:00:00.096 --> 00:00:01.331 Welcome<00:00:00.304> to<00:00:00.352> the<00:00:00.433> CEO.com<00:00:01.138> Show. 00:00:01.379 --> 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pants,<00:05:35.299> here's<00:05:35.636> the<00:05:35.860> rules. 00:05:36.518 --> 00:05:36.982 They<00:05:36.662> can't. 00:05:37.063 --> 00:05:38.602 You—<00:05:37.319> they<00:05:37.544> really<00:05:37.800> need<00:05:38.105> software. 00:05:38.698 --> 00:05:48.604 So<00:05:38.922> that's<00:05:39.195> step<00:05:39.483> one,<00:05:40.221> is<00:05:40.381> to<00:05:40.525> say,<00:05:41.471> how<00:05:41.727> can<00:05:41.904> you<00:05:42.112> have<00:05:43.186> software<00:05:44.036> aid<00:05:44.453> people,<00:05:45.559> um,<00:05:46.280> these<00:05:46.520> operators,<00:05:47.242> in<00:05:47.338> determining<00:05:48.123> what's<00:05:48.460> new? 00:05:49.502 --> 00:05:54.485 And<00:05:50.047> the<00:05:50.303> quicker<00:05:50.768> you<00:05:50.928> can<00:05:51.104> do<00:05:51.264> that,<00:05:51.585> that's<00:05:51.825> an<00:05:52.130> easy-to-track<00:05:53.251> operational<00:05:53.908> metric. 00:05:54.789 --> 00:06:02.801 The<00:05:54.934> more<00:05:55.190> quickly<00:05:55.895> that<00:05:56.087> inventory,<00:05:56.792> that<00:05:57.032> returned<00:05:57.497> inventory,<00:05:58.074> can<00:05:58.314> go<00:05:58.555> back<00:05:58.939> into<00:05:59.131> circulation,<00:06:00.397> be<00:06:00.622> listed<00:06:01.038> for<00:06:01.198> sale<00:06:01.759> to<00:06:01.903> the<00:06:01.983> next<00:06:02.320> customer. 00:06:03.265 --> 00:06:06.694 Maybe<00:06:03.602> it<00:06:03.682> doesn't<00:06:03.986> fit<00:06:04.227> me,<00:06:04.563> but<00:06:04.803> maybe<00:06:05.060> it's<00:06:05.204> going<00:06:05.316> to<00:06:05.444> fit<00:06:05.685> you,<00:06:06.005> that<00:06:06.181> sort<00:06:06.422> of<00:06:06.550> thing. 00:06:07.623 --> 00:06:08.649 So<00:06:07.832> that's<00:06:08.072> the<00:06:08.168> first<00:06:08.473> step. 00:06:08.713 --> 00:06:15.667 The<00:06:08.809> second<00:06:09.129> step<00:06:09.514> is,<00:06:10.171> okay,<00:06:11.228> if<00:06:11.373> it<00:06:11.613> does<00:06:11.853> not<00:06:12.078> 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a<00:07:46.970> lot<00:07:47.307> of<00:07:47.452> waste<00:07:47.837> in<00:07:47.918> the<00:07:48.014> process. 00:07:48.496 --> 00:08:05.123 So<00:07:48.753> ultimately<00:07:50.246> You<00:07:50.407> want<00:07:50.920> software<00:07:51.610> and<00:07:51.691> automation<00:07:52.589> and<00:07:52.734> all<00:07:52.910> the<00:07:53.071> data<00:07:53.247> science<00:07:54.034> to<00:07:54.355> aid<00:07:55.237> in<00:07:55.622> reducing<00:07:56.280> that<00:07:56.585> waste,<00:07:57.163> reducing<00:07:57.725> that<00:07:57.901> friction,<00:07:58.752> and<00:07:58.848> just<00:07:59.089> making<00:07:59.490> a<00:07:59.634> lot<00:08:00.036> more<00:08:00.469> sustainable<00:08:01.336> in<00:08:01.416> the<00:08:01.560> true<00:08:01.753> sense<00:08:02.122> of<00:08:02.154> the<00:08:02.218> word,<00:08:03.165> uh,<00:08:03.502> both<00:08:03.727> financially<00:08:04.304> and<00:08:04.385> environmentally. 00:08:06.214 --> 00:08:13.099 That<00:08:06.375> is<00:08:06.471> 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00:12:27.649 Let's<00:12:26.287> just<00:12:26.431> start<00:12:26.687> with<00:12:26.832> the<00:12:26.928> basics,<00:12:27.409> right? 00:12:27.954 --> 00:12:28.050 Yeah. 00:12:28.146 --> 00:12:31.112 Maybe<00:12:29.172> Maybe<00:12:29.493> it's<00:12:29.653> not<00:12:29.877> really<00:12:30.038> even<00:12:30.310> a<00:12:30.358> nefarious<00:12:30.935> thing. 00:12:31.240 --> 00:12:39.127 I<00:12:31.320> have<00:12:31.481> a<00:12:31.497> whole<00:12:31.737> bunch<00:12:31.993> of<00:12:32.122> returns<00:12:32.843> and<00:12:33.244> I<00:12:33.324> mix<00:12:33.645> up<00:12:33.741> the<00:12:33.837> labels<00:12:34.526> or<00:12:34.622> I<00:12:34.703> mix<00:12:35.023> up<00:12:35.183> the<00:12:35.328> QR<00:12:35.745> codes,<00:12:36.209> which<00:12:36.386> is<00:12:36.546> more<00:12:36.786> often<00:12:37.027> than<00:12:37.187> not<00:12:37.973> what<00:12:38.149> people<00:12:38.534> like<00:12:38.774> to<00:12:38.886> do. 00:12:40.057 --> 00:12:42.509 And<00:12:40.153> 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environment. 00:24:56.426 --> 00:25:03.854 We<00:24:56.586> want<00:24:56.746> to<00:24:56.907> be<00:24:57.228> data-driven<00:24:57.950> and<00:24:58.110> data-informed<00:24:59.137> as<00:24:59.313> to<00:25:00.099> what<00:25:00.340> we're<00:25:00.436> contributing<00:25:01.062> to<00:25:01.158> the<00:25:01.239> conversation<00:25:01.944> and<00:25:02.041> how<00:25:02.201> we're<00:25:02.362> helping<00:25:02.779> solve<00:25:03.260> the<00:25:03.388> problem. 00:25:04.688 --> 00:25:15.878 The<00:25:04.848> third<00:25:05.089> part<00:25:05.346> of<00:25:05.474> it,<00:25:05.795> which<00:25:05.971> is<00:25:06.036> is<00:25:06.597> Go<00:25:06.773> Far<00:25:07.077> Together<00:25:07.574> really<00:25:07.895> speaks<00:25:08.360> to<00:25:09.161> how<00:25:09.418> we<00:25:09.578> think<00:25:09.835> about<00:25:10.604> teaming<00:25:11.021> with<00:25:11.181> each<00:25:11.422> other,<00:25:11.983> what<00:25:12.143> kind<00:25:12.399> of<00:25:12.528> teammates<00:25:13.025> 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right<00:26:35.130> now,<00:26:35.595> right? 00:26:35.836 --> 00:26:43.597 You've<00:26:36.013> got<00:26:36.655> wars,<00:26:37.136> you've<00:26:37.361> got<00:26:37.538> elections,<00:26:39.062> You've<00:26:39.286> got<00:26:40.023> climate<00:26:40.488> change,<00:26:41.049> we've<00:26:41.145> got<00:26:41.305> stressors<00:26:42.251> of<00:26:42.491> all<00:26:42.828> different<00:26:43.148> kinds. 00:26:43.934 --> 00:26:49.526 And<00:26:44.575> to<00:26:44.671> me,<00:26:44.975> it<00:26:45.135> goes<00:26:45.472> back<00:26:45.857> to<00:26:46.818> try<00:26:47.796> to<00:26:48.180> find<00:26:48.933> something. 00:26:49.703 --> 00:26:53.853 And<00:26:49.943> inevitably,<00:26:50.904> there's<00:26:51.786> 2<00:26:51.962> or<00:26:52.138> maybe<00:26:52.443> 10<00:26:52.747> sides<00:26:53.164> to<00:26:53.324> every<00:26:53.581> story. 00:26:54.622 --> 00:27:01.080 So<00:26:55.327> how<00:26:55.488> do<00:26:55.568> you<00:26:55.712> actually<00:26:56.209> 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what's<00:27:33.717> basically<00:27:34.182> called<00:27:34.358> a<00:27:34.374> fixed<00:27:34.839> mindset,<00:27:36.827> Stanford<00:27:37.244> psychologist<00:27:37.870> who's<00:27:38.046> done<00:27:38.223> some,<00:27:38.865> some<00:27:39.153> great<00:27:39.394> work<00:27:39.635> on<00:27:39.731> that. 00:27:40.517 --> 00:27:42.346 That's<00:27:40.774> really<00:27:41.095> not<00:27:41.416> very<00:27:41.736> constructive. 00:27:42.394 --> 00:27:47.528 And<00:27:42.539> everybody<00:27:42.940> sits<00:27:43.325> in<00:27:43.357> their<00:27:43.565> corners<00:27:44.143> and<00:27:44.223> there's<00:27:44.528> no<00:27:44.704> solutioning,<00:27:45.747> there's<00:27:46.052> no<00:27:46.373> bridging<00:27:46.870> of<00:27:47.015> the<00:27:47.111> divide. 00:27:48.009 --> 00:27:52.133 If<00:27:48.154> you<00:27:48.234> actually<00:27:48.635> start<00:27:49.277> with<00:27:49.437> empathy<00:27:50.079> and<00:27:50.239> to<00:27:50.336> say,<00:27:50.945> how<00:27:51.042> do<00:27:51.186> you<00:27:51.266> actually<00:27:51.683> understand? 00:27:52.309 --> 00:27:53.400 What<00:27:52.389> are<00:27:52.486> you<00:27:52.630> trying<00:27:52.806> to<00:27:52.887> solve<00:27:53.191> for? 00:27:53.673 --> 00:27:54.764 What<00:27:53.785> am<00:27:53.913> I<00:27:54.010> trying<00:27:54.186> to<00:27:54.266> solve<00:27:54.571> for? 00:27:55.357 --> 00:27:56.962 And<00:27:55.534> what<00:27:55.694> are<00:27:55.774> the<00:27:55.919> areas<00:27:56.256> of<00:27:56.320> common<00:27:56.721> ground? 00:27:57.138 --> 00:27:58.791 It<00:27:57.299> gives<00:27:57.619> you<00:27:57.780> a<00:27:57.860> place<00:27:58.261> to<00:27:58.406> start. 00:27:59.240 --> 00:28:01.197 So<00:27:59.689> I<00:27:59.785> think<00:27:59.946> that's<00:28:00.202> a<00:28:00.267> really<00:28:00.587> critical<00:28:01.053> thing. 00:28:01.293 --> 00:28:03.973 And<00:28:01.390> as<00:28:01.630> to<00:28:02.416> our<00:28:02.593> perspectives<00:28:03.299> on<00:28:03.395> the<00:28:03.539> world. 00:28:04.598 --> 00:28:16.936 We're<00:28:04.823> very<00:28:05.080> fortunate<00:28:05.641> in<00:28:05.786> that,<00:28:05.962> you<00:28:06.042> know,<00:28:06.139> like<00:28:06.427> June<00:28:06.700> is<00:28:06.909> Pride<00:28:07.229> Month,<00:28:07.502> so<00:28:07.871> we<00:28:08.032> actually<00:28:08.433> have<00:28:09.476> an<00:28:09.796> inclusivity<00:28:10.695> and<00:28:10.839> a<00:28:10.936> culture<00:28:11.337> committee,<00:28:12.203> and<00:28:12.299> they<00:28:12.379> actually<00:28:12.861> sponsor<00:28:13.984> things<00:28:14.465> to<00:28:14.609> just<00:28:15.107> get<00:28:15.412> familiar<00:28:16.230> and<00:28:16.374> understand. 00:28:17.112 --> 00:28:39.291 So<00:28:17.914> whatever<00:28:18.219> it<00:28:18.380> could<00:28:18.620> be,<00:28:18.861> a,<00:28:19.182> you<00:28:19.278> know,<00:28:19.904> AAPI<00:28:20.882> in<00:28:21.027> terms<00:28:21.508> of,<00:28:21.765> you<00:28:21.925> know,<00:28:22.086> 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familiar<00:29:01.107> with. 00:29:01.748 --> 00:29:04.985 Um,<00:29:02.149> and,<00:29:02.389> and<00:29:02.549> frankly,<00:29:03.447> that's<00:29:03.767> what<00:29:03.911> you<00:29:04.008> need<00:29:04.232> for<00:29:04.408> growth,<00:29:04.809> right? 00:29:05.033 --> 00:29:09.535 If<00:29:05.129> you,<00:29:05.594> if<00:29:05.674> you<00:29:05.834> only<00:29:06.171> do<00:29:06.315> what<00:29:06.475> you<00:29:06.635> always<00:29:07.052> do<00:29:07.436> and<00:29:07.517> you're<00:29:07.997> all,<00:29:08.157> you<00:29:08.189> know,<00:29:08.334> we're<00:29:08.478> all<00:29:08.638> creatures<00:29:09.119> of<00:29:09.151> habit. 00:29:09.792 --> 00:29:16.682 If<00:29:09.872> everybody<00:29:10.481> only<00:29:10.737> does<00:29:11.058> what<00:29:11.218> they<00:29:11.442> do<00:29:11.618> and<00:29:11.699> you<00:29:11.795> never<00:29:12.179> try<00:29:12.404> anything<00:29:12.804> else,<00:29:12.980> you're<00:29:13.093> not<00:29:13.237> exposed<00:29:13.862> to<00:29:13.926> anything<00:29:14.342> different,<00:29:15.304> you<00:29:15.384> actually<00:29:15.784> don't<00:29:16.009> grow<00:29:16.265> from<00:29:16.425> that. 00:29:16.762 --> 00:29:20.078 So<00:29:16.970> to<00:29:17.066> me,<00:29:17.307> growth<00:29:17.867> really<00:29:18.172> comes<00:29:18.652> from<00:29:18.813> all<00:29:18.989> of<00:29:19.069> those<00:29:19.309> kinds<00:29:19.646> of<00:29:19.774> things. 00:29:21.408 --> 00:29:32.882 I<00:29:21.456> want<00:29:21.553> to<00:29:21.601> go<00:29:21.697> a<00:29:21.713> bit<00:29:21.937> deeper<00:29:22.258> on<00:29:22.418> something<00:29:22.642> you<00:29:22.754> said<00:29:23.219> around<00:29:23.636> empathy<00:29:24.277> and<00:29:24.421> the<00:29:24.661> role<00:29:24.982> that<00:29:25.158> empathy<00:29:25.558> plays<00:29:26.039> in<00:29:26.199> leadership<00:29:26.760> and<00:29:26.840> the<00:29:26.984> importance<00:29:27.481> of<00:29:28.523> Tell<00:29:28.763> us<00:29:28.923> more<00:29:29.228> about<00:29:29.965> how<00:29:30.206> you<00:29:30.350> think<00:29:30.622> about<00:29:30.911> empathy<00:29:31.712> and<00:29:31.808> its<00:29:32.033> role<00:29:32.225> in<00:29:32.369> leadership. 00:29:33.876 --> 00:29:35.382 Oh<00:29:33.972> my<00:29:34.132> God,<00:29:34.437> it's<00:29:34.613> so<00:29:34.918> critical. 00:29:36.456 --> 00:29:57.419 You<00:29:36.616> know,<00:29:37.482> it's<00:29:37.722> a,<00:29:37.834> it's<00:29:38.043> a<00:29:38.139> true<00:29:38.315> statement<00:29:39.101> that,<00:29:40.206> you<00:29:40.238> know,<00:29:40.623> the<00:29:40.783> more<00:29:41.168> customer-centric<00:29:42.306> you<00:29:42.530> are,<00:29:43.171> chances<00:29:43.732> are<00:29:44.389> the<00:29:44.614> better<00:29:44.950> a<00:29:45.095> job,<00:29:45.912> your<00:29:46.152> products,<00:29:47.018> the<00:29:47.114> way<00:29:47.419> in<00:29:47.579> which<00:29:47.819> your<00:29:47.979> products<00:29:48.476> to<00:29:48.957> bring<00:29:49.117> your<00:29:49.278> products<00:29:49.694> to<00:29:49.823> market,<00:29:50.384> the<00:29:50.480> way<00:29:50.704> in<00:29:50.800> which<00:29:51.025> you<00:29:51.105> service<00:29:52.387> ongoing<00:29:52.948> customer<00:29:53.461> issues<00:29:54.470> will<00:29:54.727> drive<00:29:55.592> a<00:29:55.688> ton<00:29:55.993> of<00:29:56.089> value<00:29:56.570> for<00:29:56.794> your<00:29:56.971> customers. 00:29:58.076 --> 00:30:09.435 So<00:29:58.188> the<00:29:58.333> only<00:29:58.573> way<00:29:58.733> to<00:29:58.893> really<00:29:59.358> like<00:29:59.534> design<00:30:00.079> the<00:30:00.175> product<00:30:00.736> is<00:30:00.896> not<00:30:01.040> to<00:30:01.136> say,<00:30:01.440> well,<00:30:01.681> I<00:30:01.841> think<00:30:02.001> this<00:30:02.065> is<00:30:02.177> a<00:30:02.257> great<00:30:02.498> idea<00:30:03.203> and<00:30:03.299> maybe<00:30:03.619> it'll<00:30:03.843> help<00:30:04.084> you<00:30:04.260> too,<00:30:05.205> but<00:30:05.301> it's<00:30:05.397> to<00:30:05.526> actually<00:30:05.942> flip<00:30:06.439> the<00:30:06.503> script<00:30:07.064> and<00:30:07.160> say,<00:30:07.865> what's<00:30:08.089> the<00:30:08.249> problem<00:30:08.650> you're<00:30:08.826> trying<00:30:09.066> to<00:30:09.130> solve? 00:30:10.011 --> 00:30:11.133 What<00:30:10.107> does<00:30:10.284> your<00:30:10.428> day<00:30:10.732> look<00:30:10.972> like? 00:30:11.245 --> 00:30:13.760 To<00:30:11.453> really<00:30:11.709> understand<00:30:12.366> sort<00:30:12.526> of<00:30:12.655> the<00:30:12.751> customer<00:30:13.375> journey. 00:30:14.737 --> 00:30:23.020 And<00:30:14.833> for<00:30:14.977> technology,<00:30:16.179> it's<00:30:16.355> really<00:30:16.660> critical<00:30:17.252> for,<00:30:17.781> you<00:30:17.813> know,<00:30:18.037> product<00:30:18.502> market<00:30:18.822> fit<00:30:19.079> to<00:30:19.175> start<00:30:19.719> with<00:30:20.681> what<00:30:20.841> is<00:30:20.921> that<00:30:21.161> customer<00:30:21.706> challenge<00:30:22.187> you're<00:30:22.347> trying<00:30:22.475> to<00:30:22.603> solve. 00:30:23.084 --> 00:30:33.458 And<00:30:23.308> unless<00:30:23.789> you<00:30:23.949> exhibit<00:30:24.509> empathy<00:30:25.407> and<00:30:25.631> understand<00:30:26.224> exactly,<00:30:27.954> you<00:30:28.050> know,<00:30:28.370> whether<00:30:28.835> it's<00:30:29.155> in<00:30:30.279> a<00:30:30.375> warehouse,<00:30:31.178> whether<00:30:31.419> it's<00:30:31.596> a<00:30:31.660> retailer,<00:30:32.382> whether<00:30:32.687> it's<00:30:32.848> a<00:30:32.880> shopper. 00:30:33.988 --> 00:30:36.413 There's<00:30:34.149> so<00:30:34.325> many<00:30:34.550> aspects<00:30:35.112> to,<00:30:35.513> you<00:30:35.610> know,<00:30:35.818> what<00:30:36.011> we<00:30:36.236> do. 00:30:36.959 --> 00:30:45.822 Understanding<00:30:37.906> what<00:30:38.082> is<00:30:38.163> that<00:30:38.323> person's<00:30:38.805> life<00:30:39.126> like,<00:30:39.833> what's<00:30:40.170> the<00:30:40.314> challenge<00:30:40.957> they<00:30:41.117> have<00:30:41.310> to<00:30:41.438> face,<00:30:42.000> and<00:30:42.097> therefore<00:30:42.980> how<00:30:43.140> do<00:30:43.205> you<00:30:43.365> design<00:30:43.863> something<00:30:44.489> to<00:30:44.730> address<00:30:45.228> that<00:30:45.549> pain? 00:30:46.191 --> 00:30:53.288 Because<00:30:46.496> the<00:30:46.673> better<00:30:46.994> a<00:30:47.138> job<00:30:47.476> you<00:30:47.620> can<00:30:47.797> do,<00:30:48.680> the<00:30:48.760> more<00:30:49.145> valuable<00:30:50.205> your<00:30:50.366> product<00:30:50.992> and<00:30:51.329> the<00:30:51.474> more<00:30:51.650> value<00:30:51.955> you'll<00:30:52.293> create<00:30:52.758> for<00:30:52.838> the<00:30:52.935> company. 00:30:53.352 --> 00:30:56.882 So<00:30:54.043> to<00:30:54.139> me,<00:30:54.444> it<00:30:54.540> starts<00:30:54.862> starts<00:30:55.246> from<00:30:55.503> the<00:30:55.583> beginning<00:30:56.064> with<00:30:56.225> a<00:30:56.305> customer. 00:30:57.411 --> 00:31:02.976 And<00:30:57.508> then<00:30:57.732> a<00:30:57.812> lot<00:30:58.053> of<00:30:58.149> ways<00:30:58.550> that,<00:30:58.791> you<00:30:58.887> know,<00:30:59.576> I<00:30:59.737> found<00:31:00.074> that<00:31:00.298> you<00:31:00.394> scale<00:31:00.859> companies<00:31:01.276> successfully<00:31:02.014> is<00:31:02.158> through<00:31:02.319> partnerships. 00:31:03.121 --> 00:31:06.472 Well,<00:31:03.666> successful<00:31:04.323> partnerships<00:31:04.965> are<00:31:05.189> all<00:31:05.446> about<00:31:05.751> empathy,<00:31:06.232> right? 00:31:06.729 --> 00:31:16.528 Let<00:31:06.841> me<00:31:07.050> understand<00:31:07.691> what's<00:31:07.932> your<00:31:08.092> business,<00:31:08.637> what<00:31:08.734> you're<00:31:08.878> trying<00:31:09.135> to<00:31:09.279> do,<00:31:09.936> and<00:31:10.097> how<00:31:10.899> my<00:31:11.139> company<00:31:11.941> is<00:31:12.101> valuable<00:31:12.647> to<00:31:12.807> you<00:31:13.304> and<00:31:13.465> vice<00:31:13.785> versa,<00:31:14.571> so<00:31:14.828> that<00:31:14.988> overall<00:31:15.614> the<00:31:15.710> customer<00:31:16.271> wins. 00:31:16.592 --> 00:31:18.276 All<00:31:16.993> of<00:31:17.137> that<00:31:17.378> requires<00:31:17.939> empathy. 00:31:18.372 --> 00:31:20.729 So<00:31:18.821> I<00:31:18.997> think<00:31:19.222> that's<00:31:19.398> an<00:31:19.623> absolutely<00:31:20.184> essential<00:31:20.585> skill. 00:31:22.490 --> 00:31:29.859 Finally,<00:31:23.154> we<00:31:23.494> end<00:31:23.639> every<00:31:23.818> interview<00:31:24.060> the<00:31:24.125> exact<00:31:24.465> same<00:31:24.692> way,<00:31:25.032> and<00:31:25.113> that<00:31:25.340> is<00:31:25.453> at<00:31:25.534> CEO.com,<00:31:26.328> we<00:31:26.490> believe<00:31:26.733> the<00:31:26.814> chances<00:31:27.300> one<00:31:27.462> gives<00:31:27.883> is<00:31:28.012> just<00:31:28.190> as<00:31:28.271> important<00:31:28.660> as<00:31:28.757> the<00:31:28.838> chances<00:31:29.308> one<00:31:29.486> takes. 00:31:30.423 --> 00:31:34.655 And<00:31:30.569> I<00:31:30.666> wonder<00:31:30.909> when<00:31:31.153> you<00:31:31.331> hear<00:31:31.801> that,<00:31:32.353> who<00:31:32.531> gave<00:31:32.855> you<00:31:33.017> a<00:31:33.098> chance<00:31:33.504> to<00:31:33.650> get<00:31:33.812> you<00:31:33.909> to<00:31:33.990> where<00:31:34.217> you<00:31:34.396> are<00:31:34.477> today? 00:31:36.426 --> 00:31:36.539 Yeah. 00:31:36.846 --> 00:31:44.779 So<00:31:37.863> I<00:31:37.960> would<00:31:38.106> say<00:31:39.317> it<00:31:39.802> happened<00:31:40.367> a<00:31:40.561> long<00:31:40.852> time<00:31:41.126> ago<00:31:42.063> when<00:31:42.241> I<00:31:42.322> was<00:31:42.564> making<00:31:42.871> the<00:31:42.903> switch<00:31:43.436> from<00:31:43.695> telecom<00:31:44.260> to<00:31:44.390> software. 00:31:45.381 --> 00:31:47.135 I'd<00:31:45.559> never<00:31:45.868> worked<00:31:46.144> in<00:31:46.225> software<00:31:46.778> before. 00:31:47.899 --> 00:31:53.356 And<00:31:47.996> I<00:31:48.159> think<00:31:48.337> it's<00:31:48.484> true<00:31:48.971> that<00:31:49.280> ultimately<00:31:50.246> When<00:31:50.406> you<00:31:50.567> hire<00:31:50.903> somebody,<00:31:51.464> you're<00:31:51.689> placing<00:31:52.105> a<00:31:52.266> bet<00:31:52.586> on<00:31:52.667> that<00:31:52.907> person. 00:31:53.644 --> 00:32:03.566 So<00:31:54.013> I<00:31:54.173> was<00:31:54.350> given<00:31:54.606> the<00:31:54.750> chance<00:31:55.311> to<00:31:55.536> actually<00:31:56.033> walk<00:31:56.417> into<00:31:56.770> a<00:31:56.866> new<00:31:57.074> industry,<00:31:58.100> um,<00:31:58.822> into,<00:31:59.703> uh,<00:32:00.136> storage<00:32:00.697> and<00:32:00.905> content<00:32:01.306> management<00:32:01.643> software,<00:32:02.204> which<00:32:02.428> I<00:32:02.444> knew<00:32:02.685> nothing<00:32:03.069> about. 00:32:04.031 --> 00:32:10.972 And<00:32:04.608> that's<00:32:04.929> because<00:32:05.249> someone<00:32:05.570> saw<00:32:05.826> in<00:32:06.035> me<00:32:06.692> some<00:32:07.157> attributes<00:32:07.734> and<00:32:07.830> skills<00:32:08.375> that<00:32:08.535> they<00:32:08.615> said,<00:32:09.401> I<00:32:09.497> think<00:32:09.673> she<00:32:09.882> can<00:32:10.058> get<00:32:10.282> there<00:32:10.459> from<00:32:10.699> here. 00:32:11.324 --> 00:32:12.430 I<00:32:11.485> think<00:32:11.645> she<00:32:11.885> can<00:32:12.062> learn. 00:32:12.847 --> 00:32:17.415 And<00:32:12.943> ultimately,<00:32:14.290> um,<00:32:14.931> you<00:32:15.043> know,<00:32:15.508> mechanical<00:32:16.117> skills<00:32:16.630> are<00:32:16.854> easy<00:32:17.175> to<00:32:17.335> get. 00:32:17.480 --> 00:32:17.592 That. 00:32:17.896 --> 00:32:31.297 But<00:32:18.073> having<00:32:18.554> that<00:32:18.858> kind<00:32:19.499> of<00:32:19.900> confidence<00:32:20.942> and<00:32:21.182> taking<00:32:21.535> a<00:32:21.663> chance<00:32:22.064> on<00:32:22.144> a<00:32:22.240> person,<00:32:22.705> on<00:32:22.801> their<00:32:23.026> character,<00:32:24.100> is<00:32:24.244> ultimately<00:32:25.190> not<00:32:25.366> only<00:32:25.607> what'll<00:32:25.911> pay<00:32:26.152> off<00:32:26.328> for<00:32:26.488> you<00:32:26.793> but<00:32:26.969> what'll<00:32:27.290> be<00:32:27.450> hugely<00:32:28.011> valuable<00:32:29.117> as<00:32:29.278> you<00:32:29.310> see<00:32:29.534> that<00:32:29.774> person<00:32:30.175> go,<00:32:30.720> go<00:32:30.832> forth. 00:32:32.339 --> 00:32:33.622 Uh,<00:32:32.660> thank<00:32:32.884> you<00:32:32.964> so<00:32:33.141> much,<00:32:33.381> Amina. 00:32:33.798 --> 00:32:35.032 I<00:32:33.926> really<00:32:34.119> appreciate<00:32:34.567> you<00:32:34.664> coming<00:32:34.888> on. 00:32:36.026 --> 00:32:37.180 Thank<00:32:36.267> you<00:32:36.331> so<00:32:36.587> much<00:32:36.748> for<00:32:36.828> your<00:32:36.988> time. 00:32:37.244 --> 00:32:38.607 I've<00:32:37.453> really<00:32:37.629> enjoyed<00:32:37.886> our<00:32:38.014> conversation. ```