Nadine Vogel Transcript
Clint Betts
Nadine, thank you so much for coming on the show. You are the CEO of Springboard Consulting. You have an MBA from Golden Gate University in San Francisco, a bachelor's in industrial psychology from the College of Charleston. You've had a lot of accomplishments and interesting career up for this point. Tell us how you became and got to be the CEO of Springboard Consulting.
Nadine Vogel
So, how did I become... first of all, thank you. Thank you for having me join you today. How I became the CEO of Springboard Consulting is actually a funny story. I was in corporate America. I was a fairly senior executive reporting to the CEO of a Fortune 50 company, and I had started a division of that company that, I think, by year three, had become the most successful, from a revenue standpoint, division in the corporation.
One day the CEO walked on the elevator with me and said that he always had a question to ask me, and basically it was that why when I came up with a business plan to create this division, why did I start my own company? I was honest to say I hadn't thought of it, and he told me that that was really stupid, and then the elevator doors open and he laughed. That stuck with me, and so he retired two years later. I went to his retirement party on a Monday, I turned in my resignation after 19 years with that company on Tuesday, and I started Springboard on Wednesday. He went and became CEO of another corporation and they became one of our first clients.
Clint Betts
Oh, that's incredible.
Nadine Vogel
Yeah, so that actually is how it started. It wasn't even my idea.
Clint Betts
Oh, that's awesome. So, what do you do? Tell us about what Springboard does.
Nadine Vogel
Springboard operates in about 85 countries around the world working with large global corporations to mainstream individuals with disabilities as candidates, as employees and as customers, and everything that goes with it. It's all types of disability, whether it's visible, invisible, born with, acquired, military-related, age-related, et cetera.
Clint Betts
So, how did you realize that that was something that there was a need for?
Nadine Vogel
So, the division that I created in the corporation was all focused on disability and planning for families that have children with disabilities. I have two adult daughters. My oldest one was born significantly disabled, and my younger one was also born with a number of issues, so I quickly learned what the issues were that were impacting individuals with disabilities, but then also their families, et cetera.
At that point, it was more about parents and children and forth, but as I started digging into it, I quickly learned that there was no real transition when these children became adults and they aged out of the system and were going to employment or were going to colleges and universities or could. So, that's how it all started.
Clint Betts
What does a typical day look like for you?
Nadine Vogel
I'm not sure I'd use the word typical, actually. A typical day is I get up very early in the morning. The first thing I do is spend about an hour or so in a gym or walking on the beach, something to get my head going, and the first thing then is email, just checking in. Because we're global, people are working around the clock, so when I come up and look at the computer in the morning, I have emails from the night before. So it's going through emails, it's typically checking in with my head of ops and my admin. Anything going on I need to be aware of, what's happening, and then it's just the day.
Some days, it is just back-to-back meetings with clients; some days, it is physically with clients and with some of our teams. Some days, I like to allocate time for strategic planning and going behind the scenes and seeing what's next, but I would say that what I love more than anything is that it's not typical. Every day is really different, and we focus on different things. So even with the client work, one day is training, one day is assessments, one day we're looking at legal issues, and one day I'm looking at things in Europe versus the US. So, it really makes it for quite a varied schedule.
Clint Betts
Yeah, that sounds great. That's awesome. That keeps you on your toes, for sure.
Nadine Vogel
Mm-hmm. It does.
Clint Betts
That's perfect. What do you read? What reading recommendations would you have for us?
Nadine Vogel
So, I typically read a couple of books at a time. I get bored, so I'm usually reading something that has absolutely nothing to do with business-
Clint Betts
Yeah.
Nadine Vogel
... that's more casual, but always with something to learn. So it could be something as simple as I'm reading a book about photography or art or I'm reading about the Italian language. It could be something like that, but I'm also always reading business books. I think that there's something to continuous improvement and continuous learning. So, someone could say, "Nadine, you're a global speaker; you do 30, 40 keynotes a year. Why are you reading a book on delivering keynotes?" Because there's still something I am sure that I could learn or do better, and so that's constant.
Clint Betts
What do you give speeches on? That's a lot. That's a lot of speaking in a year. Wow, that's incredible.
Nadine Vogel
It is. So the presentations, sometimes they're topic-focused. It could be something that is very specific to new legislation in a particular country around disability, but very often it's motivational, inspirational, speaking to executives, to leaders how to be better leaders, and what that really looks like, and having perspective, 'cause I find that most people don't have perspective and you need that to really succeed.
Clint Betts
What do you mean by perspective?
Nadine Vogel
So, my personal example would be before I had children with disabilities, I always thought I was in control. "I'm in control. I'm making a plan, and I'm going to stick to my plan," and what you learn is that things come at you. When things come at you that you've never experienced before, it gives you perspective on what's important, it gives you perspective on prioritization, and it gives you perspective on how to react and respond to things that happen in life.
Sometimes people say, "Look, it's not brain surgery." Well, you know what? Sometimes it is.
Clint Betts
Yeah.
Nadine Vogel
So, that's what I'm talking about with perspective. People often say, "Oh, I'm going to take time and find myself." How about creating yourself? How about taking some perspective and creating yourself? Really be intentional about what you want to do.
Clint Betts
I like that. What to you makes a great leader?
Nadine Vogel
I think a great leader ... I don't think leaders are born, first of all, I really don't. Then, depending, there are different definitions of leadership. If someone is going to be leading in the industry, leading product development, something like that, they need to do that which others can't do, won't do, and don't know how to do. That has to be the smell test. If not, they're just going to do what everybody else is doing, and they're not going to stand out as a leader.
The other piece of leading is to remember that you may have the title of leader or CEO, but it's my people who make Springboard successful, not me, right? I'm hiring the right people, but I'm relying on them because of their expertise, perspective, and experiences, and I think you have to be humble. You have to take a step back and just be humble about things and say, "I really said that wrong, or I really don't know that. I bet you know that better than I do."
I will always put my people first. We'll be in big presentations and meetings with C-suite, with corporate boards, and I have no problem having my ops person sitting there and saying, "I know you want to talk to me, but she's the one who really knows this," and put her in front of the leaders. I think you have to acknowledge and recognize your people.
Clint Betts
Yeah, how are you thinking about AI? Are you implementing that at all?
Nadine Vogel
So AI is very interesting, and the reason I'm laughing is Springboard produces an event called Disability Matters. It's an annual corporate conference and awards, and we're going to have a dedicated main stage session this year on AI. That decision was literally made a week ago, so that's why I'm laughing when you ask about it.
Technology in and of itself is a great equalizer for people with disabilities. However, it depends how the technology is used and how it's developed. You hear about digital accessibility, I like to talk about digital usability. There are many accessible websites out there that are not usable by people with disabilities, 'cause nobody's taken the practical approach.
When you add AI into it, everybody's very excited about AI. It's very sexy, and, "Oh, we get to ..." It tends to be discriminatory in nature relative to individuals with disabilities, because remember, AI is only as good as the people programming it.
Clint Betts
Right.
Nadine Vogel
Right? If the folks that are programming it or the sites that they're putting in for the system to identify information is not accurate or is not appropriate, then the AI is not going to be appropriate. We're finding this specifically in the area of talent acquisition where companies are using AI in terms of interviewing and hiring and engaging qualified talent, that it's not working so well, so we'll be addressing that in April.
Clint Betts
Right. Okay, that's something to look forward to there. You have the Women, Influence & Power Group inside of Springboard that focuses specifically on the development and impact of women's leadership and advancement globally. How are we doing as a society as it relates to women in business?
Nadine Vogel
I don't think we're doing so well. I don't think we're doing so well. Personally, I think we've actually taken many steps backward. I think we were moving in the right direction, and it just seems like we've taken some steps back, and you probably can see this in some industries more than others. We've noticed recently in the music entertainment industry that there were quite a few women CEOs or very senior leaders, and they're not there anymore, and there are other industries like that.
The WIP Group really came about ... it's interesting because it started when the Harvard Kennedy School approached us about publishing a case on Springboard about what we've done and how we've done it, et cetera. In doing that, we ended up speaking with and working with very senior-level women from government and corporations around the world, and we started having conversations about what this means. Then, it was so successful that the Harvard Business School published a second case.
The reason I'm bringing all of this up is that menopause is something that companies don't want to talk about, but if we think about when menopause occurs, it occurs primarily in women at that more senior level of leadership. Nobody wants to talk about it or recognize it, and this is something that we talk about a lot through The WIP Group and even through Springboard. The reason is, in some countries, like in the UK, for instance, menopause is a protected class similar to disability legislation, right?
Clint Betts
Oh, really?
Nadine Vogel
We don't have that here. I think we should or we will at some point. Every company puts out things for pregnancy, right? Not every woman will become pregnant, but every woman will go through menopause. So when we think about that, and we think about women in leadership, and I speak to very senior level women who will say, "Oh, I can't talk about that; I'm in a boardroom with all men. If I have to, I'll take a day off." That's terrible. That's terrible, and that's impacting and influencing inappropriately.
Clint Betts
So, what should companies do about it, and what are you recommending they do about it?
Nadine Vogel
So, a couple of things. We have to recognize that menopause is a natural state, it's not a disease. Even if it was, it doesn't matter. It's a natural state, number one. Number two, when companies' benefits divisions are looking and assessing benefits programs, they need to take that into consideration no differently than they do for pregnancy and other aspects of women's health, right? It's a continuum of women's health.
The other thing that they have to do is be willing to have open, honest conversations and allow people to talk about it in the workplace without feeling bad or wanting to hide it. I can tell you that we have these facilitated dialogues that we do with women; the men aren't even in the room. We haven't gotten started yet. The women talk about their weekends and other things related to business. All of a sudden, someone says menopause, and they start to whisper. Look, we're behind closed doors. Why are we whispering? So, it's a societal issue that companies aren't going to be able to fix for society, but if companies start approaching this in the way we're talking about it, it will have an impact on society.
Clint Betts
I see what you're saying there. What do you wish you had known earlier in your career? Basically, what do you know now that you wish you would've known earlier?
Nadine Vogel
Patience is a virtue.
Clint Betts
Everything takes three times as long as you think.
Nadine Vogel
Yeah, patience is absolutely a virtue. Yeah, I would say that would probably be number one. Number two would be, and this is where perspective comes in, to be less judgmental. I think that when you're young, you really believe in judging a book by its cover kind of thing and making assumptions. Whether it's about people, it's about companies or programs; you have to look at what's behind the scenes. I wish I did more of that when I was young because that helps you in so many ways. It helps personal growth and business growth. Yeah, that would be it.
Clint Betts
Tell us about the book you wrote.
Nadine Vogel
Wow, that was a long time ago. The book was called Dive In, and it was about looking at people with disabilities in the workforce. What we did was we interviewed about 20 fairly senior executives from different companies and asking them what their approaches were, and what challenges they had and how they were addressing the risk and the risk mitigation issues.
The reason we did that was at Springboard. We can talk to companies all the time, but companies like to hear from their peers. Companies are competitive with one another, and companies learn just as much, if not more, from what a company maybe didn't do so well than what they did and did successfully.
Clint Betts
Yeah, sure.
Nadine Vogel
So that was our rule with the book, which was that they had to be willing to share not just the good and the bad, but the ugly if there was ugly. I think the greatest pleasure I get with that book is years later, I'll go into someone's office, and not only do I see it on their shelf, but they're so proud to show it to me with all these pages folded and certain things highlighted and red lined, and I just love it. They use it almost like the old encyclopedias, like a resource, and I get tickled every time I see that.
Clint Betts
Oh, that's awesome. Well, you do all sorts of really fascinating things. You have three TV programs you have Inclusion at Work at Bloomberg TV, The Nosh, and Talk and Tea with G and Me on RVN TV. How do you do all of this? I'm exhausted just reading what you do every day.
Nadine Vogel
So I believe that we will sleep when we die, so I get enough sleep, but not a lot. I kind of tend to work very long days, and I'll go for three or four days. Then I hit a wall, and then I need one night of just 12 hours of sleep, and then I'm back. But if I don't get that 12 hours of sleep when I need it, God help anybody who wants to engage with me. So, that's how I do it.
It's fun and it's fascinating, because there's so many aspects to this work. A few years ago ... actually, it's probably more than a few years ago now, but I was given an opportunity. European University in Rome had come to us and said that they wanted to develop curriculum on disability management, and asked us if we would help them develop that curriculum, which we did.
I have a sweatshirt that says, Professor Vogel. I get all excited with it, right? What's really wonderful about it is that we've gotten to see the students who have gone through it and how their perspectives and actions have changed as a result of going through that curriculum. Just a few months ago, we got asked to come back and create more of a graduate-level curriculum, so we're in the process of doing that right now, which will be launched in the first quarter.
Clint Betts
Oh, that's very cool.
Nadine Vogel
Yeah, I love Italy.
Clint Betts
Yeah, any chance you have to be in Italy? That seems like a good idea.
Nadine Vogel
Exactly, and someone's going to pay me to be there? Oh my gosh.
Clint Betts
You must take that opportunity immediately.
Nadine Vogel
Exactly.
Clint Betts
What do you think about how politicized DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion have become in the world? I mean, having been in tech and business for over a decade, it's something that was always talked about, but now it has become this mainstream divisive political point. I wonder, as someone who works on these types of issues and these types of talks like you were just talking about around menopause, how do you feel about that?
Nadine Vogel
It goes back to what I said earlier: I feel like we've gone backward when it comes to women in leadership. I feel like I went to bed one night, and it was 2024, and I woke up, and it was 1950. Like, whoa, what happened? I think so many things get politicized today, I think that's part of the problem. I think DEI is just one piece, and people fear what they don't know or they don't understand, and people take advantage of what they believe others don't know, whether it's DEI or another topic.
So it saddens me greatly because I can think of so many amazing individuals over the years who have put their heart, soul, and sweat into creating these programs to advance women, people of color, people with disabilities, and just in a nanosecond, it seems like it's been taken away.
On the disability front specifically, what is interesting is that while DEI generally has been attacked in many ways, disability legislation and policies have advanced, they've gotten stronger. So that's the good news, bad news kind of thing. But what I don't understand is even whether it's disability or anything, I feel like we've been down this road before.
Whether it's the women's movement or people from the Black and brown community, we've looked at social justice, and we've gotten past it. Why are we going back and repeating what we know didn't work the first time, right? But I'm not in charge. I'm only in charge of my world, so I can't control everything. Like I said, I learned early on that I had to give up some control.
Clint Betts
I love it. Nadine, it's been such a pleasure to talk to you. We end every interview with the same question-
Nadine Vogel
Okay.
Clint Betts
... and that is, we believe the chances one gives are just as important as the chances one takes. When you hear that, who gave you a chance to get you to where you are today
Nadine Vogel
Wow. I think that there are a lot of chances that a lot of people get, but they don't read the tea leaves, they don't always recognize what a chance is. So as an example, the CEO of the company that I was working for, when I first told people what he said, people didn't see that as he was throwing something out there, throwing a bone, throwing a chance. It was more, "Oh my gosh, I can't believe he said that; that's terrible." I didn't take it that way, I took it very differently.
The fact that he went to another company and they became one of our first clients, the fact that then he was willing to be on our advisory board, all of those, he was giving me gifts all along the way. But I find that often gifts are given, but they're not acknowledged or recognized as gifts, and so for me, I feel like I've been given gifts as early as in high school.
I was not the best student in high school. I liked to play more than I liked to study, and I had a teacher who really pushed hard on me and said, "Well, maybe you shouldn't go to college," and maybe this and maybe that, and made me mad. She knew me well enough to know that if she made me mad enough, I was going to push back and then get where I had to go. That was a gift, right? Others said, "I can't believe she's always picking on you," right? So, I think I've been given many. My husband and I met and started dating when we were 14 years old. We've been married almost 40 years, and-
Clint Betts
Wow, congratulations.
Nadine Vogel
... that's a gift.
Clint Betts
That is incredible.
Nadine Vogel
I think that my children, especially my older daughter, were born with significant disabilities; I certainly wish she didn't have those disabilities and didn't have to deal with the things that she does, but I think there's a piece of it. There's a reason that things happen, and the gift was that now we get to educate and help not only her but so many people around the world like her who have those issues in employment and success. So, I think there are a lot of gifts along the way.
Clint Betts
That's incredible. Nadine, what an honor to have you on here. Thank you for taking the time and everything that you do in the world. I'm sure we'll have you back on to talk about various things that you're doing. Good luck with all your travels too. You're everywhere. You do a million things, it's unbelievable.
Nadine Vogel
I sleep well on planes.
Clint Betts
There's the trick right there.
Nadine Vogel
Well, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure.
Edited for readability.