Ryan Westwood Transcript 2
Clint Betts
What's it like being CEO again? Being in the big captain's chair, once again, back in the mix? You sold your company for a ton.
Ryan Westwood
Yeah.
Clint Betts
You don't have to do this at all.
Ryan Westwood
Yeah.
Clint Betts
But now you're building this incredible company.
Ryan Westwood
Yeah. There is something extraordinary in life about having a bigger pursuit than yourself and having something to look forward to, to the point where something that I think entrepreneurs are really fortunate to have is this feeling when you wake up of just pure excitement for life and what you're getting to pursue. And so, sometimes I just feel like entrepreneurship can almost be cheating and living in life because of the excitement. And I think at moments, I took that for granted, Clint. Because I'd been in it for so long, and then when I was out of it, I started doing things that were thrill-seeking type things. And I realized the reason I did it is I'd been at such a high-level adrenaline for so long and I enjoyed it so much, but I didn't realize how fortunate I was until I wasn't doing it.
Clint Betts
Yeah. And tell us about the company.
Ryan Westwood
Okay. So, one thing that I think, Clint, is really important to be a high-performing CEO is not only to identify with the values of the business, but you have to exude them. They have to be part of you. You also have to be in a business you care about, you're passionate about, that you love. I think way too often, there's a CEO who's not a good fit for what they're running. They might be a great CEO, but do the values match them, and does the company's product or service match them? And I think some CEOs maybe would perform, but those two things don't match up, so they're not as good as they could be. So, I took the time to think, "Okay. What are the values that are authentic to me, and what is a business that I'm really passionate about?" And I'll give you two reasons why I felt like Fullcast would be the right.
In 2005, when I was beginning my tech career and was at Direct Point, there was a developer named Shelley Warren. I was working with her. We were using SugarCRM, and we would geek out and go deep. We built Spiff on SugarCRM. We built insidesales.com and built a dialer. We built forecasting tools like Clari. There's these huge billion-dollar companies now, but we built that all in Sugar, her and I, and we would just jam till late at night, and we're building things, and I'm like, "Why am I so nerdy that I think sitting here building this software at 7:00 at night is way cooler than anything else I could be doing?"
And so, having that experience and looking back, having the time to reflect and be like, "What was I really enjoying?" So, I really enjoyed the software for revenue operations. And then I go to work for what was at task that became Workfront. And me and Scott Johnson, we do this trip in 2008 to San Francisco. OpenView is the VC in Boston that's backing us.
And because of OpenView, we had this connection to the president of sales at Salesforce at this point. We fly out. We spend the day and we get to hang out with all the leadership at Salesforce, all the marketing leadership, they give us their own decks, how they're viewing things, how they do things. The whole day, I'm just glued. I'm like, "This is so interesting to me and exciting."
So, I knew revenue operations and that ecosystem and space are something I just naturally love and could geek out on. So, I started looking for companies that were in that space of revenue operations software. And looking back, I'd had that passion for a long time. And so, we started looking at different companies. And I looked at probably 50 companies. I knew I didn't want to start at zero. I was like 0 to 2 million, and I have a lot of respect for any entrepreneur. Going from 0 to 2 million is treacherous and hard.
Clint Betts
Unbelievably hard.
Ryan Westwood
Unbelievably hard. It doesn't get enough respect. And so, having been through it multiple times, I was like, "If could, I will write the check to not go through that pain."
Clint Betts
You had to skip that part.
Ryan Westwood
Just to skip that part, you have my money. So, I knew I was looking for a company that had already gotten product market fit, maybe at the series A level, almost series B, and was ready to scale. And what I noticed is there's a lot in revenue operations. There's all these companies are focused on their primary user, which would be a salesperson or a sales manager. So, it's software that would help them prospect better, software that would help them forecast better, software that would record their calls or coaching everything for salespeople. But I did not see companies focused on the operations people that make all the sales and marketing professionals perform well and succeed. And Fullcast was the first company where I was like, "Oh, my gosh. The head of revenue operations for Salesforce built the product for him, his people, revenue operations people, not the sales people."
No. The sales people and the sales leaders are a secondary user, but it's primarily for the ops people, the unsung heroes, the people that when I text them between 10:00 and midnight, they reply in a heartbeat.
Clint Betts
They're the people who fulfill what is sold, right?
Ryan Westwood
Exactly. And they're the ones that fulfill ...
Clint Betts
Which is way harder.
Ryan Westwood
Way harder. And yeah, way harder. And they're the ones that the CEO will talk about a big strategy or the board, and they're the ones that then have to go make it all happen. But then, when the quota gets hit, the CRO gets all the credit. When EBITDA is hit, the CFO gets credit. But the people who make the whole thing efficient and behind the scenes never get any credit, but they're the ones who are making it all work.
Clint Betts
Yeah.
Ryan Westwood
And so, we wanted to build for them. And the only companies that had built for them, historically, that we saw were Anaplan and Exactlly. And those companies are now 20-year-old antiquated software. They're owned by big private equity and, really, they were built for CFOs. And then the revenue operations people were their afterthought upsell.
So, it's like revenue operations for us. They're not going to be the afterthought. They are the thought, and we're going to build for them, and we're going to go after the Anaplans and Exactllys, and we're going to beat them. They've also validated these ... Anaplan has a $10 billion market cap, and I want that market cap. So, I realized that it's a business that has a validated market cap. It's a business that's differentiated and one we can really go after.
And the other thing that I noticed is they had spent so much venture capital and money on the product. But when you looked at the sales team, they had one salesperson and one content marketer, that was their entire sales and marketing. They just didn't invest there.
Clint Betts
Weird.
Ryan Westwood
So, in this last quarter, we just had a blowout quarter and it was exceptional. And because it's a great product with a lot of happy customers and we're putting the juice behind it, now it's happening.
Clint Betts
What's your sense of the state of the economy, and how does that affect what you're doing? It seems like operations are so critical that you're kind of recession-proof in that, whereas a sales-only one would go up and down depending on it. But operations is interesting. What are your thoughts on the macroeconomic environment?
Ryan Westwood
For sure. And one thing that's great about our sales is there's an efficiency cost-cutting, and there's a performance and sales increase. So, we can go either way with our message, and it's resonating. When you're delivering real value, and you're focused as an entrepreneur, you're going to succeed in any environment. Now, maybe not as wildly, but you're going to succeed.
I've always felt like paying attention to competitors. I'll see if there are a few people in a lot of our deals, and I'll pay attention to them. But I stay heads down. Again, I'll pay attention to the economy. I check in on it, but it's never an excuse. It's almost like for me, I'm like, "Let's lock-in. Let's win in any environment, and let's just adapt until we figure out how to succeed in whatever economy we're in." But that's more my mentality than ... I just don't ever want that to be a reason. I will never send that email to investors saying, "We're not succeeding because of the economy. Maybe it's we're slower growing, but we're not going to not succeed."
Clint Betts
How much did you raise to buy the company? Can you say that?
Ryan Westwood
Okay. So, yeah, I can explain. Total breakdown, we actually ... One thing I love to do is under promise over deliver. So, we announced 34 million, but we actually raised 36. So, I know that it's probably a little bit rare to announce less than you raised, but I always love to give a little bit of ... Even when I talk about our revenues, everything will always be less than reality. I just found that almost everything in life with investors and everyone, including customers, is under promise and overdeliverable. It just works so well; so much of life is expectation-setting.
But the revenue side, as founders, we put in 9 million. We were the largest investors in the round. We maintain a majority. We have one investor as a board seat, founders have three board seats. We set the company upright for the long-term to build a public company, which is ultimately what I want to accomplish. So, 36 in total, nine from the founders.
Clint Betts
You realize that's an absurd number to raise $36 million, particularly in the environment that you raised it in. It's pretty impressive.
Ryan Westwood
One of the things that has been great is our team; all of us have been working hard at this and building businesses for a long time. And I think that because we've delivered on what we've said we'll do time and time again, we've driven returns for our investors. Even in any environment, as long as you keep your word, you deliver, and you do it in the timeline you say you will, you'll be able to raise money. And so, I was a beneficiary of just time and a great team.
Clint Betts
Yeah. And the founders are you ...
Ryan Westwood
Yep. Amy Cook.
Clint Betts
Amy, Isaac Westwood.
Ryan Westwood
My brother and Lance Evanson.
Clint Betts
Okay. Very cool. Who do you prefer to take money from?
Ryan Westwood
Oh, that's such a good question. One thing that I do in almost every area of business is those relationships are precious and who you take that money from is important. I'm never reactive in who I take that money. I've never had a situation where a bunch of feces through in at the last minute and then I was trying to decide between them based on their valuations and everything else. I am very thoughtful.
I would say that before taking money from someone, something happened ten years earlier that started that. I love to be able to watch people through lots of situations, and I watch very closely over a long period of time before I involve them. And I think that if all entrepreneurs would think, "Okay. Have I known this person for five or more years? Have I seen them through ups and downs?" And that means in the early days as an entrepreneur, you might bootstrap instead of raising money, which is what I did for a long, long time.
Clint Betts
That's probably what you shouldn't do if you can.
Ryan Westwood
Yeah. I learned a lot of discipline. I learned to watch cash flow daily, but I also watched people and then made very strategic bets with investors that I knew worked in the community with or were around, and I take the same. So, I take calls from investors all the time, not when I'm raising, but all the time. And I'll take lunches and dinners with them. Because the whole time, I'm thinking at some point when I raise, I'm going to have in my head four or five people, and those are going to be the ones that rise to the top. One thing about having this entrepreneurial family we have, and I mentioned some of my co-founders, I wasn't the only one raising money. For example, Amy, I was like, "Okay. I'll raise 2 million." And she raised it from her own network because she's that good on her own.
Clint Betts
Yeah. She's awesome.
Ryan Westwood
Or the same thing with Lance. He's like, "Hey," he's in Seattle, "I'll bring in 2 million." So, I have a strong enough team that, in their own right, they could all raise seed rounds independently of me. And I think that's one of the major differences for us.
Clint Betts
That's remarkable. Another thing that's crazy is how talented your founding team is. And the experiences you've had. You've known all of them for ten years, right?
Ryan Westwood
They've all worked with me for ten years or more, every one of them.
Clint Betts
It's incredible.
Ryan Westwood
I feel so fortunate. I think that startups are so hard and the fact that they want to keep doing that with me is great. And the fact that every single one of them could raise rounds without me is also ... makes me very grateful that I get to work with all of them.
Clint Betts
Yeah. That's pretty wild. And so, who did you ultimately decide you were going to take money from on this one?
Ryan Westwood
Kent Madsen is our lead investor and board member. And I can ...
Clint Betts
Epic Ventures?
Ryan Westwood
Epic Ventures. And he and Nick are phenomenal guys. I'll give you an example of how that relationship has developed over time. We worked on a nonprofit board together that you and I were both on ten-plus years ago, right?
Clint Betts
UVEF.
Ryan Westwood
UVEF. We did that together. Then he invested in our business, then I invested in the fund and became an LP. Then, I helped him raise money and brought in other LPs; then, I exited as a portfolio CEO. Then, I was a venture partner for the fund. So, if you think about the depth of our relationship, I've been able to add value for him in the fund, in bringing in LPs, in bringing in deals, in being a port-co CEO, and exiting for them and driving returns.
And so, in every facet that I could impact their fund, I've been able to do that, and they've been able to do the same for me throughout every stage. And so, when you develop a relationship like that, the amount of good and things that you can accomplish when a relationship like that is very different than just getting a check from that entrepreneur or that VC that flew in a week ago.
Clint Betts
Yeah.
Ryan Westwood
It's not the same thing. And then you look in tough moments and you're trying to figure out decisions and it's just a different headspace for everyone.
Clint Betts
I actually love this story and it's probably worth double clicking on, you were running this nonprofit. It'd been around for 30 years at the time. I think it was called the Utah Valley Entrepreneur Forum.
Ryan Westwood
Yeah.
Clint Betts
It was going through a transition, and you and I went in there. You were the chair of it. I don't know what I was.
Ryan Westwood
You were like a vice chair, and you and I were just doing it together.
Clint Betts
Yeah. Yeah. And you were the chair of it. And then it was me and you and everyone else was a VC on the board.
Ryan Westwood
Yes. That's right.
Clint Betts
And it was one of the top VCs in Utah.
Ryan Westwood
Yes.
Clint Betts
And what I love about that is that I was just like, "Well, I just love Ryan. I'll do whatever he says."
Ryan Westwood
Thank you, Clint.
Clint Betts
And then I'm looking at it, and you're like, "Oh, he's kind of vetting these VCs around," because we met, what, once a month or I can't remember what it was, and we held events and things like that. But really, what was interesting is you were building a personal relationship with each one of them, and it turns out that Kent came out on top after that experience. We were in a room with them a lot and saw how they interacted and how they thought, which was really interesting.
Ryan Westwood
Yeah. We were emailing, dealing with them day-to-day, and doing events. I completely did that because I was thinking about how I would develop those relationships long-term and how I could be thoughtful. I knew we were going to raise a round within two years. Two years after running, I resigned, and then we raised the round. But I was doing that with that in mind.
And I think that was one of the more creative ways, I would say. When people ask me about raising money, I've usually used more creative ways. I never went in your standard, "Here's a deck. Show up and pitch." In fact, I've never had a deck that I was just out pitching. Usually, what happens is I would have the anchor investor in the term sheet signed, and then they would say, "Oh, hey. Email us a deck." That's typically how it would go after most of the money was raised, and then I would make a deck. So, it's just a different way of fundraising.
Clint Betts
Yeah. And I think once we were done with UVEF, we just absorbed it into Silicon Slopes. I'm pretty sure it's inside of this org now.
Ryan Westwood
Yeah.
Clint Betts
I don't know what that means.
Ryan Westwood
Well, everything's in better hands under Silicon Slopes.
Clint Betts
Eventually, it got absorbed into there. But I found that the whole way you think about raising money and the way that you approach it, and it's kind of like this, served to give the first mentality. Some people may see that and be like, "Oh, that's kind of maybe a way to" ... I don't know. You know how people are; they critique everything. But I see that. And I was like, "Well, you just gave two years to the startup and tech and venture community, and in exchange, you got to build these relationships," but that wasn't the point. The point was to give first and then see what happens next. That's where you lead on everything. It's really fascinating.
Ryan Westwood
Clint, it's rare. It's so magical when you think that way. I was able to give back to these different entrepreneurs, and I gained a lot. They gained a lot. But I have the same mentality as my team. We're very generous with the equity with all of them. We also have 1% of the company right away that we give to a foundation. So, the whole time we're building, we know we're going to give to the community. We know that a lot of people are going to be millionaires who do what we do. I have a spreadsheet that keeps track, and I've seen people online putting their numbers. I don't put my number publicly, but it's a good number. And I plan to expand on that in a big way over the coming years. And when you wake up in the morning, and you're not waking up for you to get data, boys, and for you to feel good about some type of recognition that'll wash over you in minutes.
When you wake up, and you think, I know that by building this company, there's going to be a giant check to a charity. I know that by building this company, there are going to be first-generation millionaires all over the place. I know that this is going to impact a lot of people. And when you can think in your head of 20 stories where employees have sent you letters and said, "I just went through this terrible divorce. I was in major debt. Seven years forward, at simplest, I came out, and I'm a millionaire, and my life has changed. I'm remarried."
And you're just like, "That is why I do this." And you lose the magic of entrepreneurship if it's about you. If you're trying to build for you, it's such a mirage. It's not the greatest feeling. I remember at our Sandy office, I remember Jeremy Andrus after he exited one of the exits with Traeger, and he was sitting on my couch, and he was like the feeling of ... Because he actually cut out of the deal money for a bunch of people. And then he was able to watch that money be distributed at their surprise to their bank accounts. And as he told me the story, the twinkle in his eye was pure magic. The feeling that he had had to have transcended what hit his bank account. Sure. A lot of money hit his bank account. But the reality is, for all of us, there's only so much you can do with that money yourself. There's a governor on it. I don't know how everyone else feels. But I think that mentality of putting other people first and giving them opportunities just keeps winning for me.
Clint Betts
Yeah. Yeah. And you took money from a lot of these folks that you're referencing, right?
Ryan Westwood
Oh, gosh. Yeah.
Clint Betts
These are the people you want to take money from. You have your lead investor and then you go and you reach out to these other successful entrepreneurs, right?
Ryan Westwood
Yeah. We actually had a problem where we have so many people now that have made so much money that we have to ask them to put in less, and then they're jockeying to put in more money. And so, yeah, it's fascinating. And there are investors that reached out to me, a lot of them for whom I just said, "Hey. It's not going to work." And there were a few that said our valuation was too low. And every one of them is going to feel the pain of that decision.
I hate to say it, but they will. And the fact that they're still local and didn't believe in our team. Maybe it's just me, Clint, but I'm stunned. And so, there's a few that ...
Clint Betts
Are these funds or people?
Ryan Westwood
There's funds here in Utah that had opportunities that didn't take it. And those funds, they've already, it's been two quarters and if they saw the numbers, they'd feel like they made a big mistake.
Clint Betts
What do you make of that? What do you make of Utah's venture community?
Ryan Westwood
Oh, man. I have to be thoughtful about this question.
Clint Betts
I had Blake Modersitzki where you are. I'll just give you a sense as you think about it. I had Blake Modersitzki where you are just yesterday. Obviously, Pelion may be the most successful investor in the state of Utah.
Ryan Westwood
Oh, very successful.
Clint Betts
With Cloudflare and Divi. You had so many of these incredible wins.
Ryan Westwood
Amazing. Yeah.
Clint Betts
And then I had Karey Barker from Cross Creek, I think you know.
Ryan Westwood
I love Karey. She's a series C investor.
Clint Betts
So smart. Yeah. Such a brilliant, brilliant, brilliant person.
Ryan Westwood
Brilliant person.
Clint Betts
We have these top tier minds and people who've been really successful and all of the funds here are great, of course. And they're all trying to build the ecosystem. But where do you think we're at in the state of Utah?
Ryan Westwood
It's interesting. There's a lot of small funds, a lot more funds than there ever has been before. Some of those funds that have soured with entrepreneurs in Utah, I see them expanding outside of Utah quietly instead of saying, "Hey. We don't have the gravitas we used to have." They're expanding. I do think it's more competitive for them though, too.
It's interesting. One thing that I'm surprised by is I will see a set of entrepreneurs that I passed on a deal. When I interview or talk to them in the investment process, I'll see them say things like, "How do I know when I'm supposed to quit?" Or just questions that are so far from the mentality of an entrepreneur who is going to succeed. And then they'll raise money, and I'll look back, and I'll see, "Okay." So, I think they raised money, and I'll look at the valuation. In my humble opinion, there are far too many VCs in Utah. And I have invested personally in 14 funds and 50-plus deals locally.
And they have happened. I've started investing in those deals. It's been almost eight years. So, I've had some time to see how I've been able to do it personally. But what I'll see is they'll bet on an entrepreneur that I would never bet on. But because their valuation is low, there's way too much, I think, emphasis on how low the valuation is. And I feel like if you have an entrepreneur that you feel like no matter what, it has a track record of succeeding and will continue to and doesn't let up, even if the valuation's two or three times higher than that other, I would all day as an angel, I just think your return is so much sounder there.
Clint Betts
Yeah. I mean, more of nothing is nothing.
Ryan Westwood
Yeah. I'll see one entrepreneur who's had a few exits raising at 30 million on 2 million, one that's raising at five, and the one at 30 isn't raising. And the one at five valuation is, and I'm shaking my head thinking, "My check's on you all day. That 30, it's going to be nothing in over five years." So, anyway, I think that's one thing that I oppose.
Clint Betts
Why do you think that's true?
Ryan Westwood
I think some investors are really financially minded, and I'm wearing the entrepreneur hat. I'm looking for mental toughness. I'm looking for experience. And so, maybe in some of my deals, I'll not have quite as high of a return, but I will have a return. And I think that over the net of many of my deals, I've been able to seed a lot of deals here locally that I don't have publicly. But I was a seed investor in SPIF, or I was early in Workfront, or I was early. There are actually quite a few here locally that have exited where I was really early. And it was just because I love the entrepreneurs that are at work and so I'll bet on them all day. And I think that some of those returns are great and some are two or three times my money.
Clint Betts
Yeah. What are some of your most important leadership traits that you've learned over the years as a leader?
Ryan Westwood
Oh, man. One thing that you can never get around, and that I think people try to get around inevitably, is your example, which is the most powerful form of leadership. And what I mean by that is you'll have an entrepreneur who brags about the fact that they're working on other businesses and they're building another company. Or, commonly, they'll talk about how the CEO of five companies. Or this happens actually quite a bit. They will check out at 5:00 and not reply to their team, or they just won't create the momentum that you have to create by example.
And I think that I see way too often that CEOs have to realize at the early stage that you set the momentum, and the intensity at which you work sets the tone for the company, and there's no way around it. And Clint, I wasn't in CEO shape the first six months, I would call it. And here's funny: because I was running a big company before, north of 600 million in revenue, I became more of a Zen master, and I had to rewire myself to be the CEO. And it was a very painful process.
And then I had to almost undo all that and learn how to be a bit of a fanatic again and be very intense. And it took me six months to actually warm up to being that person again. And so, that example that I have to set as the leader of the organization is that I'm all in, and I'm ready to rip, and I'm going to do whatever it takes to back my team, and they're going to feel it from every angle. They're going to see me all over making it happen.
And I don't think an early CEO can work two and a half days, golf and talk about it and then wonder why it doesn't succeed. That's just one example of how important it is. You don't have a work-life balance. You don't work 8:00 to 5:00.
Clint Betts
There's no such thing as that.
Ryan Westwood
There's no such thing. You have to be an animal, or I wouldn't back that entrepreneur if I'm a VC. If you don't feel like they're going to be a bit of a workaholic and an animal, what I'm saying is probably totally unpopular and it probably sounds way better to say that I'm out at 5:00 and I've had this beautifully balanced life. In the back of my head, I'm thinking about work a lot. I've made a lot of sacrifices in my life. Anybody who's that fanatical has other areas of their life that take a hit. But you have to be fanatical.
If you don't want do that, don't sign up to be a startup CEO is what I would say is just don't do it. Everybody doesn't have to do it that way. They've chose to be employees. But I'm available. They don't need to be available at 8:00, but I am if they need me.
Clint Betts
Yeah. Yeah. And that's a huge thing. I mean, even if you just put that in any profession, that's true. It's like you've got to be fanatical to be one of the greatest and have great outcomes. If you think about basketball and you think of Jordan and Kobe and these people who are just crazy about it, obsessive about it, and it does affect the other aspects of your life, how do you manage that piece?
Ryan Westwood
It's affected. One thing is being off for a year and a half during that time; it's like I was intensely involved in all these things, and suddenly I'm home, and my wife's just like, "I don't need you following me around. The handyman doesn't need your help. You need to get a life again." And I think that she got used to that. I got used to that. But there are sacrifices my wife has definitely had to make because of the intensity of that.
One thing that's changed about me and helped a lot in the last couple of years is that I wish it had happened sooner in my life. But I will now work really fast and live really slow. Now, when I'm not working, I am in it with my kids, and I've started gardening, cooking, and collecting albums. I've become a little bit more of a balanced human being, and I'm all in with them, whereas before, I was always at 70%, and 30% in my head was always spinning on work.
Somehow something switched. I don't know if it was enough success that I kind of was like, "Okay." I don't know what happened. I can't actually put my finger on it, but I do now when I'm with my girls playing catch like I was last night; I was just with them. I was in the moment, 100%, and loved everything about it. And so, I think that's one thing that entrepreneurs need to do even though you're going super hard. When you're not, you got to find that way to downshift and go all in with whatever else you're doing. Otherwise, that ruins the quality of life for your loved ones.
Clint Betts
What does a typical day look like for you? But you're in great shape. You're healthy.
Ryan Westwood
Thank you.
Clint Betts
So, it's not like this is taking effect because it affects a lot of folks. It has an effect on their physical health. You get so obsessed you forget literally about everything else.
Ryan Westwood
Yeah.
Clint Betts
That's kind of wild.
Ryan Westwood
It is. It is. I think that I see them one and the same. So, I see myself exercising, meditating, or my personal fitness. I see that as part of being a great CEO. So, instead of seeing it as, "Hey. I'm so fanatical about the business. I don't have time to take care of myself." I see taking care of myself as taking care of the business, and I actually don't just worry about my health, but I worry about my executives. And when I catch up with them one-on-one, I'm asking them, "How's your health? How are you doing? What are you doing about this?" And we're discussing in detail how they're taking care of their mental and physical health.
We have an OKR system or a system to track performance. I see it all the time. I know how they're performing. I know where the lowlights are, where their highlights. That's what my executive meetings for. My one-on-ones are just making sure everybody's healthy in their mindset and they're emotionally, mentally and physically healthy.
So, I would say that a lot of CEOs are talking about their one-on-ones, and I'm like, "I can check the KPIs. I can pull up the apps. I can check their performance and see how they're doing. I know from watching." If you've been a CEO long enough and you attend an executive meeting and they report their numbers, you know what's going on in the business. I don't need to take the call to figure that out.
I actually think if the CEO is figuring out in the one-on-one how well your department is performing, they're MIA, or they're not experienced. So, my one-on-ones are checking in on their health. So, I guess my answer, Clint, is I see that all as one thing to be a high performer, and that was part of in 2016 when my back went out, and I was 25 pounds heavier than I am now; I had to go through this painful transition of not just my physical health but everything thinking, "I want to do this for a long time, and I want to be one of the greats. I want to do this on another level. I want to run a public company. And if that's going to be something I'm really serious about, I'm going to have to step up every area of my life."
Clint Betts
Was that hard, or have you found that once you get into the habit, it's become easier?
Ryan Westwood
Now, I feel way better, and I'm like, "Man, what was I doing?" Because when you're out of shape, it's hard on you. It's burdensome. It actually creates a lot of problems for you in other areas where you get aches and pains and hurt. And mentally, it weighs on you a bit in a funny way where you're like, "Man, I'm not where I need to be." There's this looming to do in your head to get better.
Clint Betts
Yeah.
Ryan Westwood
And so, when you're not, it's almost like I would parallel it to having a lot of debt. If you have a lot of debt, you always have that to worry about in the back of your head. If you have a lot of physical debt, you have that to worry about in the back of your head. If you don't have the physical debt or the financial debt, it churns you loose to go absolutely wild.
Clint Betts
You're pretty free at that point?
Ryan Westwood
Yeah. And I feel like my habits, my team and the finances that we have, have put me in a position where we can do some serious damage in a way that I've never been able to do and that's what we're on a mission to do.
Clint Betts
How have things changed culturally running a business over the past decade? All of a sudden, to give you an example, ESG was a really big and important thing in 2020 and 2021. DEI is maybe still a big thing. But it's all these things have all of a sudden become culture topics and political topics and all of this type of stuff. So, what's the difference between 2014 being a CEO and 2024?
Ryan Westwood
For me, nothing changes because I have a certain north star and values, and my team buys in, and I'm real clear with the team. One thing that we have in our handbook is we're here to be a profitable growing enterprise. We're not going to chase every cause that everyone feels strongly about. You're welcome to do that in your time. But we will have a cause that we focus on at Fullcast; education is going to be a major philanthropic focus. But a lot of different people in the company have their own interests.
And if a CEO is swayed by everyone's interest and they're not clear in that this our mandate, we can't actually succeed long-term without hyper-focus, then you have an issue. So, I'm just clear upfront about that. I also just think that I ignore, and I don't know if this is a generational thing. But I ignore what is considered political and not political. Because I think that becomes unhealthy from a mindset.
For example, I had some situations when I was in Philadelphia where I was being excluded by my teachers because of my faith in religion. And I've told this story, I sat with ... My teacher was extremely racist against Asian and Black people and hated members of the Church of Jesus Christ. She'd be in her 90s now, and she did not like it much. This woman was tough. Her name was Ms. Launch. And a few times, my dad was like, "Man, I want to launch Ms. Launch." He'd say funny things to me because I was hurt by what she did.
But it made me more of a champion for groups or people who get passed up or don't get equal opportunity. Now, because I have philanthropic support, maybe our family support. Last year, we supported the Hispanic community and gave a bunch of scholarships to these really intelligent Hispanic high school students who were going to college. The year before, we helped James Jackson create the Black Success Center with Taylor Randall at the U, and we got 400 kids from Provo to Salt Lake to leave school to Dream Builder University with a bunch of Black lawyers, doctors, and CEOs to talk about how they could become and dream whatever they want in life. Now, I was doing those things because of ...
Clint Betts
Your experience.
Ryan Westwood
My experiences in my life. You could look at those things and say, "Oh." I'm sure there are people that'll say, "Oh, he's woke, or he's whatever political standpoint because" ... I'm like, "No. Because this is where my heart is." I'll give you another example. My kids couldn't have recess sometimes. It was canceled because of air quality issues. I'm like, "That's a really big deal when my kids can't play; it's canceled because of air quality issues."
Or you come outside in January, and I'm like, "Man, do I really want to recruit an executive to Utah when they can't tell if it's smog or pollution?" That's a problem. I don't care what side of the ... I don't care how you view it politically. I just want to breathe clean air. And I think before the Olympics, we've got to make sure there's clean air for everybody. So, call it what you want. I've just put aside politics, and I'm just saying what needs to be done.
And more of these things are just being a humanitarian and loving human beings and people and my family. But for some reason, I think some CEOs, too, will take a political slant. I also don't like the political system, Clint.
Clint Betts
Yeah. Exactly.
Ryan Westwood
I just think our generation is like, "Why are you almost more cultishly aligned to a party and defending a party when both of them are super ... They all have major issues."
Clint Betts
I do think our generation is like ... I don't know anyone my age, in my friend group or circle who belongs to a party. I actually think ...
Ryan Westwood
See, that's fascinating.
Clint Betts
It's weird when you bump into someone who's part of a party. Now, I have a crazy brother who's obviously one way, and that's wild to be around. You're like, "How is your whole life this? I don't get it. What are you talking about? You don't know these people. What are you going to do? What are you doing?"
Ryan Westwood
You also lose respect for their opinions. I hate to say it this way. Because what happens is you just want to have a conversation that is third-party, non-biased. Just like, "Let's riff on this issue." Whatever it is, say it's abortion or whatever. How do we better solve whatever issue you want to talk about? If they come from the standpoint of "I just want the best solution," you love that conversation.
If they come from the standpoint of everything is from a party angle and through that filter, even when it makes no sense, you just get to the point, and it gets old when that same friend, you know that all you have to do is turn on the channel for whatever their political party is and the alignment is 100%.
Clint Betts
Yeah. They'll just say the same thing.
Ryan Westwood
Just repeat it. You wonder if you're like, "Are any of these their own thoughts, and are any of these thoughts more unbiased?" So, that's where I have a hard time with that.
Clint Betts
I just hear the same thing from 10 different people. I'm like, "You guys get an email, a memo of what is your actual thoughts on this? This is crazy."
Ryan Westwood
Yeah. I wonder how that'll change in Utah because so much of Utah growing up, especially being in Springville, everyone was Republican. And it was a big thing to be a Republican. And if you were any other party, it was almost like a derogatory word. It was like, "You did something wrong."
Clint Betts
I was just the town over in Spanish Fork, it's the same thing.
Ryan Westwood
And to me, that is just not right. I don't think that there needs to be this political affiliation, and somehow, that should be synonymous with any religious faith. I think you should take every issue and try to be practical and smart about it.
Clint Betts
I'll give you an example of when we've run into this Silicon Slopes, even recently. Recently, I was reading an article and it was about some kid who was ... It was about all sorts of things. And he actually ended up dying. But it was about neglect from his parents and malnutrition. He died of malnutrition, this kid.
Ryan Westwood
Oh, wow.
Clint Betts
But anyway, part of the story that really stuck with me was when the school lunch lady saw him digging through the trash to eat lunch. And she's like, "Well, I'm just going to pay for his lunch," because he couldn't get lunch because he had negative school balance, school lunch balance. So, she started paying for his lunch. And then the school district says, "You shouldn't do that. Sets a bad example, and other parents are going to take advantage of a school lunch lady." Like, "This is going to set up a bad example. Other parents will start taking advantage of all that type of stuff." Anyway, that part of the story hit home for me because, again, we kind of go back to our experiences, right?
Ryan Westwood
Yeah.
Clint Betts
I was that school lunch kid. I was like, "I needed the free lunch, get the help." I was the summer lunch kid where you like, "All right. Let's go to this to get summer ..." I was that kid. And again, that story is about way more than that, but I really fixated on the lunch thing. So, that shouldn't happen. That doesn't make sense. I don't care how it gets taken care of, but I don't want that to happen.
So, Silicon Slope says, "All right. How is this a problem?" I put out a tweet. I'm like, "What is this? What's going on?" And I learned we had $2.8 million in school lunch debt in the state of Utah. I'm like, "That's a small number. Let's just go raise that. Let's cover." So, immediately that day, we launch. We started raising money for this thing, and we partnered with somebody I'd never met before. His name's DJ Bracken and he actually started a foundation just a couple of months before called the Utah Student Debt Lunch Relief Foundation or something like that. And we've raised, I don't know, $20,000, $25,000 at this point.
But it's like we're going to fix the issue. So, here's what's crazy. That's all it is for me. It is like, "All right. How do we fix this issue?" Obviously, it's not sustainable for us to do this long-term unless you create a perpetual fund, but then you start asking questions. If we get two or three years down there, like, "Why are we doing this? But right now, let's just solve the freaking problem."
Ryan Westwood
Yeah.
Clint Betts
And man, the political storm you get when you do these things is crazy. It's like, "Why do you think you do this? Isn't that going to" ... Again, set the bad example thing. Like, "Parents are going to start taking advantage of this. Isn't this crazy? Why isn't this? Why isn't this." Both sides are attacking it.
Ryan Westwood
I'm all what?
Clint Betts
Yes. I don't care. Like, "Solve the issue. How is the issue going to be solved?"
Ryan Westwood
Clint, it's like the kid at school who didn't get lunch is the center of the issue. Why is the tail wagging the dog? Why is this a political issue? People have to put politics aside and think about people. Humanity is what matters. It's amazing how brainwashed. It's like, "You want me to stop making sure this kid doesn't get fed because of some political agenda? You're out of your mind. Get out of my way. We're going to feed these kids."
Clint Betts
Yeah.
Ryan Westwood
Yeah. So, I think our generation has to put the politics aside and look at how do we care for humanity and each other?
Clint Betts
Well, it's so crazy because we put that out, and they're like, "You want the government to give everybody free lunch?" I'm like, "No. We're not the government." There's also a misunderstanding of what Silicon Slopes is. I feel like people think I'm elected official or something. I just do whatever I want. I actually think you're in a better spot than they are. Well, I don't answer to anybody. I can do whatever I want.
Ryan Westwood
Exactly.
Clint Betts
They're like, "Why are you advocating for the government?" "I'm not advocating for the government. We're private. All of this is private. I don't care how it gets fixed. How do we fix it? And if the answer is Silicon Slopes, create a perpetual fund, then that's what we'll do. I don't care. For what is the actual answer."
Ryan Westwood
Yeah. For sure.
Clint Betts
It's crazy. It's wild. Anyways, how are you thinking future long-term? Obviously, goal is to run a public company.
Ryan Westwood
Yeah. I think I've thought a lot about legacy. I am thinking big, and I am thinking long-term, maybe bigger than I've ever thought. I think there's a lot of interesting things. One thing that I want to do that I've been thinking about is I'd eventually like to see some type of leadership summit here in Utah or leaders from around the world. And I've got some ideas and a grand plan for that. That's something I'd like to see happen. It is some type of major event; Davos kind of feels here in Utah. I'd love to see that happen.
Clint Betts
Yeah. That'd be sweet. We have the perfect place for it.
Ryan Westwood
I feel like we have it. I think the company stuff is so much more than just building a company. I view it as the impact on the community, the people, and the lives of all those people. It's also an interesting time in Silicon Slopes. If you think about Silicon Slopes, one of the founders and the people who have carried Silicon Slopes, Aaron Skonnard, has retired. You see that Todd Pedersen's retired. Josh James went away for a while and then came back. You see Ryan Smith.
Clint Betts
He's the only one still running a company.
Ryan Westwood
Yeah. And you see Ryan Smith leaving. I think that it's time for the next generation of entrepreneurs to start to step up and build on what they built and to give them a break to raise grandkids and families, and it's hard and intense. But I think it's time for the next group to step up and build Silicon Slopes.
Clint Betts
I think there was a bit of a mistake made when, maybe, like 2017 or 2018, where we were really trying to promote this state and, in particular, promote a lot of the people you just mentioned. Look at what they're building. This is crazy. This is really cool. Then, the community, that next generation, would see them on stage and say, "Stop giving the microphone." It's like, "No. It's not really about them. It's about we got to ... What do we have?"
Ryan Westwood
It was a way to promote the brand.
Clint Betts
You got to spike the football.
Ryan Westwood
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Clint Betts
What are we doing? We've got to spike the football. And then it became like this: there's this wing of the community that becomes antagonistic to that and feels like, "Well, we need to go against that."
Ryan Westwood
For sure.
Clint Betts
And do something. And I think we made a bit of a mistake there as a community that we need to rectify, which I think it's easily rectified, but where we just put all of that stuff behind us, and it's like, "Well, let's just step up." It really is only about spiking the football when you're doing community building. Whoever's got the football, who cares? Whoever gets to spike it as long as we score.
Ryan Westwood
For sure. And I think that this generation can be a much wider net of entrepreneurs. It should be a larger group.
Clint Betts
It's bigger.
Ryan Westwood
It should be bigger.
Clint Betts
It's a larger group. It's far more diverse. It's far more everything.
Ryan Westwood
Yes. I think that that's the next thing is just a lot of entrepreneurs and maybe by committee success, and I could see us getting national recognition through just sheer numbers versus lifting certain sum of individuals.
Clint Betts
And it's such a rare thing that Utah is able to do. We could get all of those leaders in a room to talk about not their companies but the growing ecosystem and growing Utah. It's so rare. When we were doing it in 2018 and 2019, Forbes put it on the cover of their magazine. They're like, "What is going on?" The top CEOs in the state are just getting together. And they don't even talk about their companies. They just figure out how they can grow other companies and others. It's crazy.
Ryan Westwood
Yeah. It's pretty rare. Yeah. There's a unique dynamic in Utah that I love. One of the major reasons I love being a Utahan is that people ... And I actually think that this may be an unpopular thing to say, but I think because of the undertones of the religious faith when you're giving away 10%, whether people think it's to the right cause or not, you're in the habit of giving. You're in the habit of taking a portion, a big portion, and giving it away.
And the mentality that comes with that, if you're not even religious, you have to respect the mentality because that fights greed. That creates an opportunity for other people. And you start out with a mindset where you're putting aside and giving away money from a young age. And I think we're used to giving away money and time in Utah from a very young age, and it sets the tone and a feeling that is different than most places.
Clint Betts
Yeah. This is another mistake we're making right now, related to the one we just did. But it says a state, not as a community. I saw a tweet, maybe a month ago, that read, "65% of the state is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. That's too high. We need to get that lower."
Ryan Westwood
Yeah.
Clint Betts
I was like, "So, what? What does that mean? How?" My initial thing is like, "How do you do that? Do you want to relocate? What are we talking about that?" It gets pretty wild pretty quick when you actually think of, like, "We want to reduce the population of a certain religion in an area."
Ryan Westwood
Yeah. I mean ...
Clint Betts
You know how crazy this ...
Ryan Westwood
It is.
Clint Betts
You start looking at some crazy things in history where that's happening or where that's ... I mean, you look at Israel right now. These are consequential things that you're just throwing out there to try to make a point or get a few likes on social media. That is wild. And we've got to respect and spike the football on what came before us, and why would we not respect it? Why would we want less?
Ryan Westwood
Yeah.
Clint Betts
That's crazy.
Ryan Westwood
I have so many friends, because I live in Salt Lake kind of proper in an area that is predominantly people that have moved in and majority of people are not a part of the Church of Jesus Christ. And I live in the heart of all of that. And one of the things that I think is very interesting is they're very respectful about what came before and how we got to where we are. And the other thing is they love it here. They love it.
And people come kicking and screaming six months later. My next-door neighbor is Lauri Markkanen. And Lauri is in love with Utah. He comes back from hikes in the mountains. He told me at one point that he didn't want to go back to Finland. He wanted to just stay the summer in Salt Lake with his kids and family. He's rolling under cars with Nerf guns, shooting with my kids. He's like, "Man, I can get to the city in a minute. I can get to the freeway in 15 minutes. I can get to park to city in 25 minutes. I'm downtown." He loves working out in the mountains. He loves the family focus.
If these people come in, and for a long time, I think that we had a bad rap where people would say, "Free agents. People don't want to come for the Jazz." And I feel like my whole thing if I were Ryan Smith, is to let him just be here for six months. And people will change their minds. The culinary side of Salt Lake City over the last ten years ...
Clint Betts
That's incredible.
Ryan Westwood
Transformational, major difference. I just think that where else in the world can you be in the city and in 10 minutes, I'm by myself on a hiking trail in the mountains in 10 minutes.
Clint Betts
Utah is literally what everybody thinks Colorado is. Salt Lake is literally what everybody thinks Denver is. It's pretty remarkable. And my only message there is like, "Don't attack what has made us unique and what has created that," what you just described.
Ryan Westwood
For sure.
Clint Betts
Like, "Sure. Critiques are great. But less, that's wild, or more is wild." They're like, "Any of it." It's like, "What are you talking about? This is weird."
Ryan Westwood
Well, if I'm looking from the outside in, there's a lot of things. One thing that I could see that would help overall is what I just talked about with tithing. I think it's good. It makes us generous people. Another thing that I think is to look at the missionary program and everything that it entails is that it has created some incredible entrepreneurs and a lot of great salespeople. And at the end of the day, what makes business go around? Salespeople are critical to businesses.
There's all these things that if you're not even religious, you have to look at and say, "Yeah. There's some really positive things that have contributed to what makes you talk great." And I think that we also, the diversity and the people coming from outside of Utah are making Utah even better, too.
Clint Betts
That's fantastic.
Ryan Westwood
It's amazing because I've just found that with my teams, the more diversity, the better the place we get, and the more different types of thought. I make better decisions. We make better decisions. And so, I think if we just collaborate and see each other as a win-win. That's how Utah goes forward. It's just like the political stuff. There doesn't need to be, "Hey. There's less of this faith, or there's more people." It's not about that. We're all Utahns, and we're all trying to do great things. Let's enjoy a great economy. Let's enjoy the spirit of generosity. Let's enjoy the fact that in Utah, we can be outdoors, eat well, and have the spirit of family and togetherness. Those are the things we should celebrate and just keep those values going in Utah.
Clint Betts
Final question. We believe the chances one gives are just as important as the chances one takes. When you hear that, who gave you a chance to get you to where you are today?
Ryan Westwood
My grandfather.
Clint Betts
Yeah.
Ryan Westwood
Yeah. My grandfather, being in the farm truck with my grandfather.
Clint Betts
Yeah. There's nothing like that. That's my exact same answer.
Ryan Westwood
Yep.
Clint Betts
Ryan, thank you so much.
Ryan Westwood
Thank you for having me.
Clint Betts
Appreciate it, brother.
Edited for readability.