Andres Angelani Transcript
Clint Betts
Thank you so much for coming on the show. You are the CEO of Wizeline. You started this just a few months ago, is that right?
Andres Angelani
That's right, yes.
Clint Betts
So, let's start with that. How did you get to be the CEO of Wizeline? Tell us about yourself.
Andres Angelani
So, I was the CEO of another company before, Softvision. I took a little bit of a break after that run, and I spent a few months doing consulting work and board roles that I used to have. And I'm in software, so Wizeline is all about software digital transformation. So I got a bit tired of that kind of multiple things without any kind of big plan. So the founder of Wizeline was... I was advising in one of my roles. Normally, I've scaled these types of companies, product engineering, and software tech companies from small to medium to large. Then, we either sold the company to a strategic player in the space or went public. And I've been in those two situations before in my career. So, I thought it was a good moment to jump in. I really liked the company, I liked the culture, and I saw a huge opportunity ahead with all the upcoming AI trends and everything that we can do incorporating AI in the whole cycle of how we do the work, and I jumped in.
Clint Betts
So tell us more about what Wizeline does.
Andres Angelani
Wizeline is a software company where it is sort of a software innovation space. We create innovative consumer-grade products like apps and rich UI games all the way down to complex AI and heavy data products. So it's kind of a gamut of products. Mostly very, very strong in media products from the newsroom, pipeline, and tooling all the way down to content management, streaming applications, and services to typical e-commerce online systems. So it's pretty wide but very well specialized in media, entertainment products, retail products, and financial services. That's kind of where we normally gravitate in what we do. Always with an arrow of transformation, so normally, the company is more of a traditional company that has gone either into retail or financial services. And they need an innovator who can help them accelerate their go-to-market in some of the... Either if they want to change or improve customer experience, improve employee experience, or augment roles now with AI. So they need a player that can actually help them out comprehensively, not just throwing a piece of tech to them. That's normally when they come to us.
Clint Betts
And you mentioned AI a couple of times here. How do you think that's going to change everything? Particularly in the media space, it's really interesting to see this idea of AI newsrooms. AI media, obviously ChatGPT, and others are pretty good at writing content currently. And so, how do you see AI affecting the media landscape?
Andres Angelani
We see it mostly as a productivity tool, but we don't see it as a replacement tool at all. We see it more as an augmentation tool. But again, at the end of the day, it is a tool. For example, we've created Co-pilots for journalists. Co-pilot for journalists, what is it? It helps you write in your voice, but it's your voice, and it's you who curates that content. We've created media transcription tools, so then live media, such as an interview, comes in. It could be transcribed online, content categorized, and give you hints so that you can publish it on social media. It's a really nice productivity opportunity for us, but it does not replace, not in a bit. Actually, it really helps you be a little more strategic and improve your research. It gives you time to do a better job. Now, this era of disinformation is great; it cross-checks and figures out where the actual sources of the data are so you know exactly.
So for our journalists, for news, it's a fantastic opportunity but if used well. So everything that we've done so far as we plug them into their pipelines, the content production pipeline, it's always curated. There's nothing like, oh, this thing is going to go solo. That's more of what we used to call it, now a hallucination and then reality.
Clint Betts
Yeah, that's my sense of that as well. What does a typical day look like for you?
Andres Angelani
It's pretty dynamic, and there's no single exact week for me, and that's a bit hard. First of all, during onboarding, this is my second round as a professional CEO, so I think I'm doing a little bit more organized this way. I didn't know what to expect the first time. So, I've been traveling a lot in the beginning because I have to see clients and teams. And the company is international. As an international, we have around 2000 people, so different countries and I have to go to places. So I've been traveling a lot. So that's why my week doesn't look the same because it's one week, one day that... When we stabilize that, normally, on Mondays, I have a team meeting with my directs for about 90 minutes, and then we go off and do our things. We keep a backlog of all strategic things that we need to do.
Then there are a few kinds of meetings where there is cadence, where we measure forecasts, look at the finances, look at team status, etc. And then there's normally either in that week, an event, client meetings, all the time, depending on where I am. I'm based in New York. My workplace is in New York City. Normally, there are a lot of meetings and activities because New York City is a meeting point, and people come to the city. And if I'm not here, then I'm probably at another office getting people together and running a summit. We're about to do an offsite; we do some of these every couple of quarters. I still need to do the first with my team because it's my first month. There's an order to chaos, but it's a bit chaotic because I also need to respond specifically: there's a new deal or large deal coming in. Okay, they want the CEO's blessing on the deal. Let's go meet the people.
We also have an investor side because the company obviously is not standalone; it's private equity backed. So we have board meetings, board sessions, strategy sessions, etc. So it's very rich of things. I have a team that is in a kind of CEO office that does all that coordination and also manages not only my agenda but also all of my executive team's agenda. So we are all coordinated. Otherwise, it's very hard to keep track of. Are we actually looking at the same goal? Are we compatible with everything that we're doing, or are we off doing whatever? I'm not. I get the great friends of having too many one-on-ones because then you have seven different plans that are not coordinated depending on direct reports. I normally like to have more of a... Our industry is more of a team sport. It's a people business, so we need to also take care of what's going on with the team. And there's a lot of hiring going on all the time in different locations. So, we'll also look at those metrics.
So there is a time for everything, but I would say that normally you have that team meeting, you have clients in the week, and then there's something to do with sort of an event for people. It happens almost every week. And obviously, you have flights; that's the tough part.
Clint Betts
What's the best piece of leadership advice you've ever received?
Andres Angelani
I think that, from my perspective, is what's your energy, where you are, your energy levels because depending on where you are, you have high energy or low energy, and it depends on the day, and it depends on whether you're sick or you're okay or you're feeling pumped. And what happens in your personal life projects immediately. And the things that we do as CEOs multiply downstream. So what we say or we do or show normally multiplies. And the negative stuff multiplies very, very quickly. So it's very important to watch how you feel because that is immediately picked up. People are always looking at you, and they might be silent, they might be quiet, it doesn't matter, it ripples. So I think I wasn't aware of that, to be honest. I wasn't a CEO just yet, but I used to be very high at a fast pace, and I wasn't checking. I'm moving, moving, moving, moving, am I checking? I wasn't that aware of what was going on around me.
And I was already pretty high-end in the stack, in the hierarchy of the organization. And I was having a few problems, and I didn't know what's... Synchronization, people not catching up, people not following what's going on, frustrations, what's going on. I had a part in that. Then, you can start to learn and check. So go, I'm probably going too fast. Let's slow down; let's catch up. And also, how is it that in your meetings, you're projecting? So, high energy is normally great, but it kind of has to be regulated. Look at the energy around the room: are they contributing or not contributing? It becomes a solo show sometimes. And it happens. It happens, it will happen to any of us that sometimes you're just on your own track, and you need to get 20 things done, and then you're going [inaudible 00:11:37], like that and then maybe 20% gets actually done because it doesn't depend on you 100%.
Clint Betts
Yeah. What are you reading, and what reading recommendations would you have for other leaders?
Andres Angelani
Now I have got into a book that my wife gave me, which is very interesting. Actually, it's the 48, I think. What is... I have it here: the 48 Laws of Power. Oh, it's very interesting. I hadn't read it, and I read it with just interest, but I like the historical background of some of those. I don't adhere to everything that I read in that book, but it's interesting as it provides a holistic understanding of what power and control mean and how people will react. It's just interesting for awareness, not as a guidebook, but more of information. You don't want to say or do everything that's in that book, but at least it gives you some of that. So it's just kind of an off-book for me. I read a lot of work, not some books, and I read different articles all the time. I actually watch YouTube a lot on interpretations of historical events and things. I think I find what people think about things super amusing. And again, I don't take it as a law or like, oh yeah, I'm going to believe this or that guy. I just wanted to know how they came to that conclusion. I am more interested in the process. And then it helps you in that way. I think that that helps me understand how people think and where they're coming from. So it gives you an idea of being a little bit more open-minded because there are certain things that I certainly don't adhere to, what I hear. It's crazy, but I'm a big YouTube consumer.
Clint Betts
No, I'm the same. Yeah, I think it's really interesting. In fact, I want to kind of double-click on that because we live in a time and a world where what you think is who you are, or what you express is who you are, and even what you consume is who you are in a way. And I think what you said there was really interesting is it's actually not who you are. What you're doing is you're just learning and listening and trying to get all these different sorts of perspectives and just getting a sense for what other people think. And there's nothing wrong with listening or learning from people you would disagree with or just be interested in.
Andres Angelani
No, I think it's also a matter of balance because, in my job, I'm always kind of at the forefront, like they're looking at you for decisions. You have to come up and be proactive, obviously. The strategy normally comes from me, and then we work on it with a team. So when I'm on my own, I have my own time. I like to observe because it's a way for me to relax, but that doesn't influence who I am. I learn. For example, I use YouTube a lot to update myself on code because I'm a trade engineer. So that's where it's very hard to keep updated in really tech subjects, such as very low-tech coding. And now, I want to understand the impact of gen AI, for example, in coding. So I go, and somebody is like, okay, I did this and this and that, and then I reproduce it. But I observe, and I try to learn. I'm pretty selective when I'm looking at something. Okay, well, this is... I'm not interested; just pass it. But more of an observance than that.
If you look at me, I'm a bit more active on professional networks like LinkedIn, but I'm not an active social person because most of the time I'm observing, I'm looking and learning. I don't really have time to be posting all the time. It just gives me a lot of stress. I hate doing that. So it's not... Maybe an organized podcast I could do. We're trying to do something like that. But I'm a little bit of a rebel. If you look at my Twitter accounts, I don't have time, and it's not in me. I'd rather kind of look at what's going on.
Clint Betts
Yeah, that makes all the sense in the world. What are the three most important leadership traits you believe that any leader should have, and what have you experienced with leaders or yourself as you think about what it means to be a leader? What are maybe the three most important leadership traits?
Andres Angelani
I think that from a personality standpoint, what really drives you is excellence, not ego. Excellence versus ego, I think that that's very important for me. I love developing talent, for example. As a software company, we have a bunch of engineers, a bunch of designers, a bunch of product managers, a bunch of testing people. And it's great to work in a team where you see how people grow. I strive for excellence. If you're driven by ego, it's tough. I'm not that kind of person. I think that that's a trait that is sometimes very difficult to distinguish from the other because I can be very aggressive in striving for excellence, and I could be perceived as a maniac who wants everything to improve all the time. But it's because of that; it's because I'm raising the bar, not because I feel good by just controlling.
The second thing I would say is listening. Listen. Observe and listen to what's going on. And it's super important because you're nothing without a team. I can be very smart, but if I don't have a team that responds, is really engaged, understands strategy, and can actually contribute to strategy and challenge me, it won't create a great business. And I've been successful in my previous businesses because I've always wanted to provide that environment to listen. So if people are quiet, I feel anxious. I want to get, okay, tell me what's going on. And so, in that the listening also has to have an element, I think it's important. I'm working that out now as I'm onboarding as a CEO, but I'm not through yet. Is the elimination of fear because of any change... People don't know you yet, and they don't know me yet because this is my fourth month, there is an element of fear, and I pick up on it.
It's just people are not too totally relaxed. And people have different times; some of them relax before, and they're like, okay, less risk averse, so to speak. Others are more risk-averse. So you kind of have to tolerate that until they stabilize and start to speak freely and comfortably. So that's important. And I would say... What's the third one? And I just had it, and it left me. So, it is absolutely important to address the fear. And the third is just to create that community in the company, the ability to create groups that can operate and thrive on their own just by connecting and sharing. And it's very difficult to achieve. At least from my perspective, the bigger the company, the more difficult it is.
So, in all my companies, I'm now going to Guadalajara, where we have a big team in a couple of weeks to sit down with the team and fully develop what the community model is. How do we train, how do we promote, how do we make sure that everybody has access to coaching and mentoring, how do we make it real? And for a lot of companies, this stuff is on paper, great. It's fantastic. But in reality, it doesn't happen as it was written. It's very important to focus on that because it actually gives you credibility and amplifies your employee value proposition. And it makes people feel like, okay, belonging in this organization really not only makes me feel good but also that I'm learning and improving in my career. But without that community environment, there's no engagement. So it's written, it's in the manuals, it's in the HR profile, and these are all the different levels and skills, soft and hard.
Great. But if there's no engagement, if there's nobody that can ask, "Hey, I want to be in data, I want to be a data scientist, what are the steps?" "I'm now a tester, and I would like to be a data scientist. Can I be? What should I do? How do I prove myself?" You have to have community. If you don't have that, it's just you'll never know. You will never have the exposure. So that needs to be a lot more systematic than it normally is in companies. In our types of companies, especially now as we deliver innovation, without that, we're nothing. So that's what we are going to improve now as I'm moving forward. But those are kind of, for me, the three top, I would say.
Clint Betts
How do you stay grounded and focused on your mental health and just your regular health?
Andres Angelani
When I am one of those who goes fast and then stops, but I have a high low, it's very difficult to have a middle speed. Some of them, that's how the mind works. So I run almost every day, relaxed and not crazy. I used to do CrossFit before. It was a little bit too intense. Now I'm older, so I need to watch it and I run. So physical activity is very good for me, it kind of relaxes me a lot. One of my passions is music, so I play the piano and try to keep up with it. So that is another kind of thing for me. It's like meditation when I play the piano; it is like a different wave in the brain that activates. And then I have four kids, so I'm busy with other things, and so I make myself busy. We have activities that we do as a family, and I try to do a lot of family and friends.
So that kind of keeps me more grounded. When I am traveling a lot, I normally just pause for a week and then take a few days off. And throughout the career, one learns to read. You learn to read yourself and say, okay, well, I'm getting to saturation point. Let's disconnect for a day and take a morning; sometimes it's a morning. It's just the morning, relaxing, and then you move on. Cheating is a little thing that I like to do, like checking into a movie theater and just watching a movie by myself.
Clint Betts
Yeah, that's the best thing ever.
Andres Angelani
Where is he? Well, he's late. He's relaxed. Just little things, little sins like that. Or go and get myself an ice cream. Stupid things like that, you think... Little things in life are the ones that make you when you are stressed; just cheat a bit. Little things, healthy ones.
Clint Betts
That's incredible. What are some products, apps, or things that you use on a daily basis that you could not live without?
Andres Angelani
Well, obviously, I use all the work stuff. The Google Suite is a big company's Google Suite. Everything we do, including the workspace, is online. So I think that that is essential. Zoom and or any other collaboration tool is essential because we have teams distributed everywhere, so we use it all the time. Then, I use the news app a lot because I can quickly read what's going on. I read the New York Times online, which gives me a perspective that I think is more serious and certain things that I want to read, and that's basically my paper. And then I do not really like social media; I find it stressful. I watch a little bit of Instagram once in a while, and then I use WhatsApp a lot because we have teams, not only teams but also friends.
I have my high school friends from Argentina. I'm originally from Argentina, and I'm in a WhatsApp group, and I follow that. So, I am connected to my friends. So WhatsApp. WhatsApp is not very common in the US, but it is super common outside of the US. And in any other country except the US, there is a big WhatsApp, and that keeps me connected. My oldest daughter is currently in Argentina and Buenos Aires. So we keep up with what's going on. So that's probably where most of my day... But because of WhatsApp, and I find it a lot better because it's a control set group of people that you would discuss things and send photos to, I don't have the urge to publish anything social. And I've seen that people publish their whole life publicly. I'm very private, I find it very... I don't know if it's an invasion of intimacy. We used to publish before when I was a little bit younger, just maybe because of social pressure; everybody was publishing, and you would be published. But at one point, I was like, no.
Clint Betts
What do you think of the role that CEOs now play in today's world, where they have to have some sort of opinion or some sort of take on what's happening outside of their company? For example, we have an election coming up in the United States. There are elections happening around the world this year, as well as the economic environment, economic policies, and things like that. How do you view your role as CEO in that conversation?
Andres Angelani
No, I think that it's important that we make an opinion, at least because if you look at private companies and CEOs, people normally look at Wall Street and everything that's going on there because they're regulated. And they're very outspoken in the market, and they're the larger ones. But if you look at the private equity world, it's much bigger than what you see online in media. So, private equity companies hold most of the wealth. I don't think that there's enough focus on more private company CEOs and what they're experiencing. I think that the private company CEO, who is normally a smaller company, is a little bit more balanced in our approach.
We are making a lot of innovations, but we don't have that kind of change in the world or a revolutionary attitude. So I think that it would be good for media to have a more structured approach to how you pick CEO profiles to make opinions because, in my case, I think I'm more balanced. And you asked me what you think about the X or Y situation. I'm going to give you a rational opinion, not something that's one-sided or what? Because I have a deal here or there, I probably don't have a deal with a politician or anything. So I feel like a lot of the guys that go into media is because there's some ulterior motive for them to go to media that would somehow influence their wealth or whatever. I think we need to have more neutral CEO positions where intelligent people really look at situations and give a more balanced opinion on subjects rather than very one-sided.
I think the way that media is treating that contributes to polarization because, at one point, if that's all you show, somebody is saying black, and the other's saying is white. And the people don't think anymore. They just would think, oh, I feel better. It's the emotional thing of all this polarization that needs to be controlled a bit. And the only way that you do it is through rational logic. Like, okay, why is this guy saying this and this and that? And there are a lot of people who can actually be pretty good at explaining why you're saying what you're saying in a much more neutral way. That's my perspective. Again, I think that it's imbalanced right now. It's definitely a good place to start looking and making sure that there are other types of CEOs in the mix.
Clint Betts
Yeah, exactly. Finally, we ask everybody the same question in every interview, and that is, at CEO.com we believe the chances one gives is just as important as the chances one takes. I wonder when you hear that, who gave you a chance to get you to where you are today?
Andres Angelani
Yeah, so I was in Argentina. We started a company, and I was one of the first joiners. The reason that we started it is because we thought there was an economic imbalance in Argentina, as there always is. Unfortunately, it's a very crazy country, economically speaking, and this is like the early 2000s. There was an economic crisis of the same magnitude that there is now-ish, similar. The imbalance was that the Argentinian peso was so cheap that professionals in Argentina were very cheap. So we could actually be very talented and have a cost advantage versus the US or the UK. And that was the reason that we started the company. They would give us the opportunity because we had the talent as engineers and we were cheaper at that moment. So one of the guys in the company said, "Why don't you go and help us open the operation in the UK?"
That was the first, and I ended up in the US later, but I lived a few years in London. I'm Argentinian Italian, so I could do it. We didn't have any papers and nothing to operate in the UK, but I was a European citizen, so I could live in the UK. But without that person who trusted me, I wouldn't have been able to do that. But then I stayed 13 years there, and we went public, so from nothing to a company that's one of the most successful companies in the world. So, I did give back to them. And then obviously, I've been given opportunities to add other people as well that then I had, and I got a lot of my co-patriots to live in different countries, take executive positions, make a lot of money. It's always great to see that. And by the way, a lot of those people that are... This is a long time ago, 20 plus years, and they are still working with me today because we just found ourselves.
You find yourself in there, and then there's this trust that they know who I am, and I know who they are. Sometimes, it works, and sometimes, they just leave, but we find ourselves on different adventures. So that's the beauty of it because people like me spend a lot of time working. That's the reality. But it's more living the line between this work-life balance thing. Well, the balance is not having a clear enjoying it because you're going to be doing something. So, there are people who enjoy it differently. In my case, I enjoy work a lot. So, for me, that's part of living. That's why most of my friendships were formed in these adventures that we had together.
Clint Betts
Yeah. I love that. Hey, it's been such a pleasure to talk to you, Andres. Thank you so much. Seriously, what an honor.
Andres Angelani
Thank you for the opportunity.
Edited for readability.