Clint Betts

Ali, thank you so much for joining the show. Seriously, it's a real honor to meet you and to talk to you about Collective Health. You have such a fascinating origin story for this company. Maybe we start there. What led you to start Collective Health?

Ali Diab

Well, thanks for having me on, Clint. Yeah, it's a very personal story for me. I was, about 10 years ago, a little more than 10 years ago, hospitalized out of the blue with a pretty serious illness, and after recovering from that was very surprised to learn that half of my hospital charges had been denied for reasons that were very impossible, I would say, for me to understand at the time. That, very naively, inspired me to want to create a kinder, gentler health insurance company.

I quickly realized that, actually, we didn't want to be an insurance company at all, but rather enable the many employers in this country to pay for their employees' health care expenses kind of from their balance sheets to do that better, which was true to my own experience, so that's what Collective Health does. We enable self-insured employers to design and deliver health benefits and health insurance plans with much better customer experience, much greater flexibility, much greater transparency, than you can using a traditional health insurance carrier.

Our hope is, in doing so, number one, we can help support Americans a lot better than the health insurance industry does. The Net Promoter Score, health insurance is one of the lowest of any industries. Ours, thankfully, is an order of magnitude higher than that. At the same time, also help American companies which shoulder about half the total bill for healthcare in this country to do it with much greater sort of influence, much greater leverage than they can using traditional means.

I mean, the cost of healthcare, as you know, is rising and has been rising much higher than inflation for many, many, many years. We think it's time that we started to use market forces. Help bring that under control.

Clint Betts

How does Collective Health do it? Is it because you have a larger pool? What's the model, exactly?

Ali Diab

Yeah. Actually, it's not a health insurance pool. It's rather, honestly, giving the keys, if you will, to the kingdom to those that are paying for the healthcare expense. If you're a big self-insured employer, I mean even if you're a massive self-insured employer, you don't really have a lot of control over how your network looks, what kind of programs are offered, especially if you work with a traditional health insurance company. We enable big employers, basically, to mix and match different kinds of networks, different kinds of solutions, whether it's a very targeted solution, to take care of people with diabetes in your population, or fertility needs, or whatever it is.

Then to very quickly evaluate what's working and what's not. Then negotiate, basically, with the people that are providing the service on the other side with a lot greater power, because you have the data to know what's costing what, and what kind of return you're getting on your investment.

Clint Betts

What is your overall take and sense for the way the United States does healthcare compared to other countries, and the burden of healthcare being placed on the employers to figure out? I know that happens in other countries too, but that is kind of an American model. If you lose your job, you lose your health insurance normally. What is your take on the state of healthcare in the United States, and the fact that it's tied to employers at all?

Ali Diab

Yeah, so no doubt we have a bit of a wonky system. You probably know the history of this, but it relates to wage controls after World War II. Effectively, to keep wage inflation under check, the US government granted private enterprise the ability to provide benefits, health, and other benefits in a tax protected manner. That's kind of just the prevailing way the system works.

That being said, we do have a national health service. I mean, people think we don't have nationalized healthcare. We actually do. We have Medicare, and we have Medicaid. Medicare for people over the age of 65, and Medicaid for people below a certain income threshold. But you're right, for the vast majority of working Americans, 170 million+ people, they end their dependence, obviously. The private sector basically covers those costs.

I don't have a philosophical view on either. I mean, I think you could make a legitimate argument that private enterprise has served the US and other industry segments. We've seen Moore's law and other great economic benefits as a result of that. Healthcare just seems to be an anomaly in a lot of ways, because we really haven't, again, given the people who are footing the bill the tools to do it well. I think if you give them the tools to buy something intelligently, American employers have shown they can buy stuff intelligently, whether it's software, or materials, or whatever it is. Healthcare really should be viewed differently in my opinion.

Clint Betts

Not to go too deep on the policy and politics of all of this, but we did have this major healthcare bill or law passed. What was it, like 2010? Nicknamed Obamacare. What did that do? How did that benefit or not benefit the system?

Ali Diab

Yeah. I mean, if you want to be fair, it's really Romneycare. It's like Mitt Romney put it in place in Massachusetts before anyone else, and then all of a sudden became Hillarycare, and then Obamacare. I mean, yeah. The Patient Protection Affordable Care Act, the PPACA, or ACA for short, was, I think, well-intentioned in that it put a lot of protections in place that you basically allow people to get health benefit coverage, or healthcare coverage, for things that they absolutely should but were being denied coverage for. You think of things like preexisting conditions that included conditions, quote unquote, like maternity. If you were a pregnant woman before the Affordable Care Act, that was a reason to deny you health insurance coverage.

I think it provided a lot of protections, and it set some minimum criteria for what a health insurance, or health benefit coverage plan, should include. Like a lot of things, I think there were aspects of the bill, or aspects of the law, that were co-opted by the industry to make it maybe less user-friendly and more economically favorable for the incumbency. That's part of the political process, I guess. But I do think the spirit of the law was good in that it kind of removed a lot of barriers to people getting health insurance coverage.

The challenge, then, and it kind of goes back to your prior question and my point about, "Should employers cover the cost of care." It's not a mystery that we have a massive amount of federal doubt. You could make the argument that, well, if the government is already so underwater from an economic standpoint. Businesses, private business, have tons, and tons, and tons of cash, as they do. Maybe it's not a bad idea for the private sector to step in and help shoulder the benefit, because, again, they are reaping the sort of tax advantages of doing that.

I think you could make an argument that the private sector should step in more. The Affordable Care Act, I think, created a good framework for just healthcare coverage in general, but I think the private sector could step in more and help, I think, wrangle this industry more than it's been asked to do, I think.

Clint Betts

We talk a lot about self-leadership at CEO.com and what it means to lead yourself. If you can't lead yourself, you can't lead others. That type of philosophy. When you hear the term self-leadership, and when you think of self-leadership, what does that mean to you? How do you enact it in your own life?

Ali Diab

Yeah. It means a lot. I mean, I think, like you said, if you can't manage yourself, how can you be expected to manage others? I think in my case, sort of specifically, I'd say self-leadership looks like a lot of time with my spouse and kids, and kind of the support and the identity that comes with that. I definitely identify as being a parent, just being a dad, if you will. I think that helps a priority order. Again, I think management, to me, is about establishing priorities, and then making sure you focus yourself and the people who work for you on the most important things, and maybe let the less important things fall by the wayside to a certain extent.
I'd say, to me, that's the foundational thing, kind of my family, and my kids, and my spouse. Everything else is kind of secondary to that. I do have rituals and other kinds of things that I do personally that I think are important, and help me stay grounded, and help me stay energized, but I do think kind of starting with family first, for me, at least, kind of is the ballast or the rudder for everything else.

Clint Betts

What does a typical day look like for you?

Ali Diab

Usually it involves getting up relatively early in the morning, spending some time with my kids, making them breakfast. Depending on who's got driving duty, driving them to school. Then, depending on the day, because we work a few days of the week in the office, and a few days at home, could be coming into the office and having meetings, or doing kind of just solo work, or doing that from my home.

Then, a religious practice for me, there has to be some time involved to do some kind of physical activity. For me, that really helps kind of keep me grounded and keep me energized. Whether that's going for a trail run, or going to the gym, or even potentially playing a sport occasionally, every now and then. I definitely make time for that. Then the evening is dinner and homework, usually, with my kids. I have a 16-year-old and then a now 13-year-old as of this weekend, so a lot of time –

Clint Betts

Congrats.

Ali Diab

Spent helping. Thanks. Helping them with homework, usually, in the evenings, and then lights out. Pretty boring. Pretty boring. That’s my life.

Clint Betts

Perfect life. I mean, I wish more leaders did that. It's incredible.

Ali Diab

Yeah.

Clint Betts

You mentioned this in your answer about you guys working half out of the office, half at home. What is your philosophy since COVID-19 kind of disrupted this whole everything at the office? Then we had to work from home, and now there's kind of this option of bringing everybody back after doing some sort of hybrid schedule. How has Collective Health handled that issue?

Ali Diab

We've tried to do things organically, meaning there's been a natural pull already in the organization since the pandemic, and obviously during the pandemic, to want to convene. We've tried not to be too heavy-handed in terms of what that looks like, but rather push the decision making down to the teams, and then create a framework at a high level in terms of what we think the right balance point is. It's something that we review constantly. Our chief people officer is very sort of highly attuned to the needs of our workforce, and kind of what works and what doesn't for different populations.

Where we've kind of settled is on a kind of roughly two to three-day week, depending on where you are and what kind of function you're in, but then we don't provide much more guidance than that. The understanding is there's probably some balance that's good in person and solo at home type of work. Then the teams really should figure out what's the best sort of mix for them, and what's the best way to allocate that time. Try not to be too restricted.

Clint Betts

In the context of your role as CEO, how do you decide where to spend your time within the company?

Ali Diab

I'd say that's arguably the hardest thing that I face, because there's a really, really broad, vast spectrum of things that I could be spending time on, whether it's business development and relationships or technical stuff. Quite honestly, I can't say that I've got a perfect balance. A lot of it, in many ways, is driven by just kind of what's immediate and is somewhat opportunistic. I mean, you do have to be responsive as a leader, as I'm sure you know, but I try to leave some time every day, like a good three to four hour block, for just kind of self-directed work. For me, that looks a lot like reading a lot. I try to read a lot of trade stuff. I try to read a lot of internal documentation, and then that often spurs me to think about stuff that maybe I should be spending more time on.

Clint Betts

Is there a singular experience or moment that you look at that kind of changed your view about what it means to be a leader?

Ali Diab

Yeah, I'd say probably one of the most important was starting to assemble an executive team that wasn't exclusively made up of myself and my co-founders. It sort of forces you, in many ways, to take stock of where you're at, and then what kind of organization you want to create. Obviously, when you inject new DNA like that, other than the founding DNA, there's always a risk that it doesn't work out.

I think one of the things that that really brought into sharp focus for me was just how important my role as kind of a bridge builder needed to be, and the interlocutor between various people needed to be. It's not always been smooth sailing, but I'm happy to say that it's been largely smooth versus some of the very turbulent stuff you might read about in the press.

Then I'd say the other thing that's been really impactful in terms of thinking of my role as a leader is, as we started to open offices and hire people across the country, trying to maintain that cultural consistency across state and city borders, and stuff like that. That's always also a challenge, because every part of the country has its own unique culture. The hiring pool is different in the Dallas area than it is in the San Francisco area as just one example, so just trying to maintain consistency culturally across all of those sites while also providing, because I think it's important, and I think there's a lot of benefit to it, the ability for those local areas to influence your culture in return. That has also been something that has been really, really interesting and challenging. A major growth opportunity for me as a leader.

Clint Betts

I see you have the book AI Superpowers behind you.

Ali Diab

Yeah.

Clint Betts

Every single CEO and leader is thinking about how artificial intelligence is going to change everything. Obviously, artificial intelligence isn't new, but it's kind of become the topic of the moment over the past year. What do you think about AI? How are you thinking it affects Collective Health, and the health industry, and maybe just even beyond the health industry? What are we looking at here over the next five, 10 years?

Ali Diab

That's a good question. I would first respond by saying I have a bit of an allergic reaction to the use of the term AI, having programmed neural networks myself at some point in my academic and professional career early on. I think it's a term that's highly misused and overused. What I would say generally is there's no question there is ample opportunity for the use of software and machine-learned based techniques to improve everything from operational processes to customer experience.

I mean, just think about how personalized a lot of your software and other experiences are today from Netflix, to your iPhone, to whatever. That obviously has a lot of machine learning that powers that. I think AI, in the most recent incarnation of it, in the sense of generative AI and large language models, definitely have their place. I don't think they're a solution for everything like a lot of people are saying, but I do think they have their rightful place in the armory of different kinds of software and data-based machine learning techniques to improve, again, efficiency, quality, and then ultimately the user experience.

We are experimenting with all sorts of different kinds of machine learning, and AI, or AI-like systems, internally that could impact everything from the end-user experience in one of our apps, to how we process data in our data pipelines, and ingest data, and connect external parties to our platform and to our systems. There's a lot of promise, and we've already made a lot of progress using those kinds of techniques.

Clint Betts

Interesting.

Ali Diab

I think, as a CEO, if you're not thinking about it over the next five years, yeah, you're missing out for sure, but I would say you've been missing out for the last 20 if you haven't been thinking about it.

Clint Betts

Right. Yeah. It is true. AI's not new.

Ali Diab

No, it's not.

Clint Betts

And it's kind of like we're all kind of talking like it's a brand new breakthrough or anything like that. Large language models you could argue is a breakthrough, but AI itself, no. Even large language models, it's just like OpenAI has figured out how to commoditize that and make it digestible to the public. Right? Even that's been around for a while.

Ali Diab

Right.

Clint Betts

In this context of AI, I guess the concern now is, what happens when we get to artificial general intelligence? Right? What happens when we get to AGI? Maybe we already have gotten there. Who knows? Who knows what just happened with OpenAI and Sam Altman? Maybe they got there, or maybe they didn't. Do you have any concerns around AGI? I never really understand the doomsdayers, because there's never an explanation of how AI is going to destroy the world. Right?

Ali Diab

Right.

Clint Betts

And what that means, because it is. Can't you just unplug it? It all is just math and code at the end of the day, and so do you have any concerns around AGI, or the future, or its ability to extinct or make human mankind extinct?

Ali Diab

Yeah. It's funny. I have the same kind of feeling about all this stuff. I'm much more of an AI, quote unquote, optimist, if you will, than a pessimist. I do think that doomsdayers, many of them, either have an agenda that they're pushing by kind of espousing that kind of philosophy publicly, or they don't really understand the technology all that well. It's probably a mixture of both, to be honest.

I'd say that, just like any other technology, nuclear fusion, biochemical engineering, it can be abused by bad actors. I think there's valid concern around that and the need to have regulation and other sort of ways to supervise and to inspect, if you will, how these things are being used and what underpins them so that you don't allow bad actors to exploit them. I think what's interesting about generative models in particular is they have the ability to create things out of things that they've been trained on, obviously.

I think with that comes a potential real capacity to overwhelm various systems. I mean, think about all of the deepfakes and other stuff that you could really supercharge with a really powerful generative AI model. I think there is valid concern about that, but disinformation is already rampant on so many social platforms. I think this could make it even more so. I think those kinds of concerns are valid, and I think that's why sort of the federal government and other regulators are starting to think about, "How do we regulate this while not also hindering the advancement of the tech?"
But I'm with you. I don't see, personally. I don't foresee a Terminator-like armageddon scenario. I think these are very powerful productivity enhancing techniques and capabilities, but I don't think this is the T2000 that's going to come and murder us all. I could be wrong, but I just don't see that.

Clint Betts

Well, if we're wrong, it won't matter. I won-

Ali Diab

I guess, yeah. I guess. I mean, I think we're going to burn ourselves to death through climate change before AGI —

Clint Betts

Yeah. I think we have more existential threats.

Ali Diab

Kills us.

Clint Betts

Yeah.

Ali Diab

Yeah, I agree.

Clint Betts

I don't know that AI's our number one existential threat.

Ali Diab

100%.

Clint Betts

That's for sure. There's a lot out there.

Ali Diab

Yes.

Clint Betts

I mean, nuclear weapons are one.

Ali Diab

There is.

Clint Betts

Right?

Ali Diab

Yeah.

Clint Betts

So I would put that above AI, honestly.

Ali Diab

Yeah.

Clint Betts

This is my last question about AI. I wonder what type of jobs it might replace within healthcare. I'm thinking particularly around medical billing and coding. Could it handle that and replace those types of jobs, and then those types of people are managing the AI? I mean, what do you think of it in terms of it will displace jobs for sure. How will it do that within healthcare, and then what jobs are created from it, are you thinking?

Ali Diab

Yeah. I don't think AI's going to be much different than other technologies. I mean, whether it's the steam engine or printing press, or whatever, in terms of upscaling jobs or making jobs more powerful and more highly leveraged because of the technique. Yeah. I do think there are a lot of very mundane automatable tasks. Not even AI, but just basic machine learning can replace it. I think replace is a word that I don't love, because I think that implies that there's going to be a perfect substitution effect on the workforce, and that's never the case. Usually there's some kind of adaptation to the workforce.

I do think jobs will become more AI enabled and more AI powered. Sure, some jobs will likely be lost as a result of that, but I think they will be more than replaced. I mean, our unemployment rate has never been lower, even though technology has never been more advanced. I think, again, going back to being an AI pessimist to optimist, I'm an optimist because I think it'll actually enable certain kinds of scenarios that are just simply inconceivable without the technology.

Clint Betts

Who's an example of a leader that you really admire?

Ali Diab

There's many, because they're not just leaders in the business world. They're also leaders in the political and kind of social spectrum. I absolutely have a huge man crush on a few of our Founding Fathers, just because if you think about the context within which our country emerged, it was not a foregone conclusion that the United States would be a successful experiment. Whether it's folks, obviously, like George Washington, or President Adams, and others, there's a lot of wisdom, I think, that our early forefathers had. It's obviously reflected in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, that I think we're really very, very, very prescient and well ahead of their time. I mean, they're issues we continue to grapple with to this day, as you know.

Obviously, they were standing on the shoulders of giants themselves. The Ancient Greeks had talked about democracy millennia ago. I do think that there's a lot of wisdom to be gleaned from reading about the lives, and sort of the practices and the approaches to living that our Founding Fathers had that, to me, make them among the most interesting role models to try to emulate, if you can. It's a very different time, obviously, but it's really interesting. I think there's also a lack of kind of publicity seeking that they had that really resonates with me. A lot of them were kind of reclusive, which is really interesting.

Clint Betts

Yeah. I totally agree with that. Another fascinating thing about them is they kind of knew that what they were doing was going to be historic. They kind of knew in their lifetime, as they were doing it, "Hey, this is going to be studied for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. We can't screw this up." There was this kind of, like, "This is history."

Ali Diab

Totally. I think they also knew that what they were doing wasn't a foregone conclusion, meaning you'd have to keep working at it for pretty much ever.

Clint Betts

Yeah.

Ali Diab

I think there's a lot of wisdom in that. It's not like you just kind of spin the die and it keeps going. No, no, no. You have to constantly be adding energy to this to make sure that it continues. Obviously, we're seeing that today.

I'd say in terms of modern business leaders there are a lot of people, I think, to choose from. I am a big fan, just personally, of someone like Bill Gates, just because I think obviously he's revolutionized a lot of different industries, but I think also what he's chosen to do with his personal life, in terms trying to eradicate disease, especially given that I'm in healthcare, is really, really impressive. I mean, what the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation has done is, I'd say, nothing short of revolutionary in some respects. It's just like he's relentless in wanting to eradicate lots and lots of diseases in the impoverished parts of the world, which I think is very admirable.

Clint Betts

What role do you think empathy plays in leadership?

Ali Diab

A huge one. I mean, I don't know how you can be an effective leader if you don't have it. Even, I'd say, some of the leaders that are lionized in kind of a public press for being ... I don't know what you call it. Swashbuckling, or even borderline tyrannical, if you want to call it that.

Clint Betts

Yeah. Steve Jobs was an asshole. Right? That's a good example of it.

Ali Diab

No, but he had tons of empathy. There's no way that you can —

Clint Betts

Absolutely.

Ali Diab

Motivate and assemble a team without it. I think the press tends to want to focus on those maybe unsavory or maybe more bombastic aspects of his personality, but there's no question. You cannot motivate and orchestrate without having empathy.

Clint Betts

Absolutely.

Ali Diab

How can you relate to somebody when you're talking to them if you don't?

Clint Betts

Absolutely. There's no way that he wasn't, the vast majority of the time, super empathetic and able to get the best ideas out of people. It's just not possible. That's not true. Yeah, you're right. The media focuses on the insane. What happens out of that is really interesting, because when the Walter Isaacson bio came out about him, everyone was like, "Well, I've got to be like that." Like the most extreme stories. You know what I mean? It's like, no, that's not good. That's not a good thing.

Ali Diab

No. It's a caricature of who he was. It's not who he was.

Clint Betts

What are your thoughts? You mentioned earlier the fact that our unemployment rate is so low, but then again inflation is so weird. We're living in this really interesting economic time. What are your thoughts on the macroeconomic environment, what things might look like going into the next year? Whether we're on the verge of recession, whether we've avoided a recession in the United States, and then globally. I mean, there are some countries who are already in a recession. I wonder, what do you think? This is odd, right? This low unemployment, but still the vast majority of the country doesn't feel like we're in the right place economically. It's weird.

Ali Diab

Yeah. I mean, as someone who studied macroeconomics as kind of my focus in school, I'd say it's not actually that weird, and not that unexpected to kind of be in the state that we're in. There have been many examples of supply shocks, whether it was the oil embargo in 1973, or others, where that can really tip the balance very quickly in terms of driving underlying asset and resource prices, which then have a pretty insidious knock on effect on everything downstream.

I think, unfortunately, the pandemic and the supply chain disruption that that caused was kind of one of those shocks that really kind of tipped things over. I'd say it was already kind of already on the path to being tipped over because of cheap credit. I mean, we've had interest rates that are effectively zero for almost a decade, and that is great in terms of driving investment and driving economic growth, but there's a pretty nasty sting in the tail to that if it's not well managed, in the form of the inflation that we're dealing with, which is always more stubborn. Sorry. Always more stubborn to control than you expect it to be.

I think we have a very similar, in some ways, not entirely, situation to what we had in the last 70s, early 80s. It does take some strong medicine, and it's not popular to raise interest rates to try to tamp inflation down. It's starting to have an impact. You see gas prices falling, home prices falling, just because it has a chilling effect on the economy intentionally. People hate it, because they're accustomed to being able to spend, and accustomed to growth, and accustomed to transaction volume. When that goes away, it can be pretty upsetting, but hopefully people will remember that once prices are more under control, then things will feel a lot better.

This is where we're kind of going back to healthcare. I mean, healthcare has been growing in terms of per person cost per year at three to four times to CPI for like 25 years. That's why you see healthcare growing from eight or nine percent of GDP back in 1980 to more than 20% of GDP today. What's problematic about that is it takes away from other parts of the economy.

When I'm taking more money out of your wallet to pay for your insulin, or to pay for whatever drug that you have to take, then that's money that you don't have for other things. That's why I think it's very important for us to focus on trying to control inflation in healthcare as much as we can.

Clint Betts

Is there a moment as a leader where you may have failed or not lived up to your expectations that kind of became a catalyst for you to become a better leader? Something you learned from?

Ali Diab

Every day I do something really not very smart, and my team reminds me of it. Yeah. It's an opportunity to learn. I'd say in terms of big crucible moments, I think I've started a couple of companies before Collective Health. They weren't wild success stories. I'd say the humility, and the learning, and the circumspection from those experiences are probably why I've been able to do a better job here than I would've otherwise done. I think it's nothing earth-shattering to say. If you're not failing, you're not trying, and I think people need to fail, just like kids need to make mistakes, stub their toe, et cetera, in order to learn that, "Oh, that's what that leads to. I should probably do things differently the next time."

Clint Betts

I can't tell you enough how much it means to us to have you on the show. Seriously, your wisdom and what you've built at Collective Health-

Ali Diab

Thank you.

Clint Betts

Is so incredible. We end every interview the same way, because that is, at CEO.com, we believe the chances one gives are just as important as the chances one takes. I wonder when you hear that, who comes to mind as who gave you a chance to get you to where you are today?

Ali Diab

Oh my gosh. Where do I start there? I mean, whether it was my parents. My parents were political refugees from Syria. My dad actually was sentenced to death in 1963 for basically advocating for a pluralistic and democratic form of government.

Clint Betts

Oh my gosh.

Ali Diab

So I think about the sacrifices that my parents made, moving halfway across the world while pursuing an education, and creating a safe environment for my brother and I to excel and to achieve, probably. I mean, that's higher than anything else for me, in terms of that pecking order, but I've had a lot of help along the way. I mean, whether it's elementary school teachers in Menlo Park, California, or college professors at Stanford, and at Oxford, or professional mentors at places like Goldman Sachs, and Microsoft, and Yahoo. I've had the benefit of learning from some really, really, really smart people who didn't have to take the time to kind of help me out when I was floundering or not sort of doing my best. They kind of helped me readjust and recalibrate. There are many, like way too many, I'd say, to count or to mention.

I'd say one leader in recent memory that was really impactful for me was my kind of big boss, if you will, at Yahoo, Jeff Weiner, who became the CEO of LinkedIn. He's an angel investor in Collective Health. He was just really good at kind of pointing out flaws in my professional and other capabilities, but without making me feel bad about myself. He'd be like, "Hey, I saw that you did this. I think this could've been more effective, and here's why." There's something really powerful about people who can do that and not make you feel terrible about yourself.

I'd say Jeff Immelt, who's on our board, former chairman and CEO of General Electric, is another one who does that really, really well. I make plenty of mistakes, and he's really good at helping me understand when I make those mistakes, but without making me feel terrible.

Clint Betts

Ali, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us, and congratulations on everything you're building with Collective Health. I'm sure that we will talk to you again down the road. Really appreciate you coming on. Thanks so much.

Ali Diab

Thank you, Clint. Really nice to meet you.

Clint Betts

Likewise.