Catherine Oliver Transcript
Clint Betts
Catherine, thank you so much for coming on the show. It means a lot to have you here. You're about to launch a book, or you did launch a book in June called The Working Parents-to-be.
Catherine Oliver
I did.
Clint Betts
Tell us about it.
Catherine Oliver
So yes, it's called Working Parents-to-be, launched in June. It's basically a step-by-step guide to parental leave and return. The reason I wrote it is essential there are a lot of firms or increasing numbers of firms out there who offer support to individuals and hire people like me to come in and help people pre-, during, and post-parental leave. So when they're going away for a period of leave to have their child, to help them manage that transition to becoming a working parent.
But there are obviously an awful lot of people out there who work for organizations that don't yet offer that kind of support. So for me, it was very much... It didn't feel very fair. That there were a lot of people out there not getting this and not even realizing that this stuff existed and that it could make such a difference to them. So that's why I wrote the book.
Clint Betts
How do you think we're doing as a culture and as a society, particularly in the West, on this particular issue?
Catherine Oliver
I think it varies enormously, actually. We are getting better. It's definitely improving all the time. I mean, I've been working in this space now for about 12 years, and that's sort of going back to the time I had my daughter. When I started, I actually thought that when I originally had an idea to set up a parent network, it was my idea. I thought I'd come up with this brilliant idea and then very quickly realized that there were networks out there for parents and other groups. But the business I work for, so I worked for Sky, which is a big TV broadcaster in the UK and across Europe, and they just didn't do it. But there were some other big organizations that did.
So at that point, it was mostly the big financial institutions, big legal firms or professional services, those kinds of firms who I think... My theory is that they have very high-value employees, it costs a lot to recruit, and they were competing to recruit that talent. So that's where it started. How else can we retain this talent? How else can we be different? Then it moved down to the likes of Sky, which is a very big firm, but it has very different employee types. So, it was not just the corporate kind of people, which was my day job, studio staff, engineers, retail staff, contact center, and all that kind of thing. And then it's sort of moved down since then.
So some of my clients today are quite small businesses, and that's a real step change. It's a real shift, and it's also changed in terms of who people are supporting. So it went from very much supporting parents, particularly moms, to start with, and now it's about dads as well. It's about managers as well because it's all very well equipping a parent, but if you haven't equipped a manager with the skills to have those conversations as well, then you are only dealing with half of it. Right?
Clint Betts
Right. Yes, yes. That is perfectly said. What is your story? What led you down this road and led you to write this book? I get you noticed the problem, but what's your personal attachment to this?
Catherine Oliver
So, my story is that I worked mostly, but not exclusively, in corporations for about 20 years until I started doing this. Back in 2011, I had my daughter, and at that point, I was in a strategy role at Sky. So my day job involved working with our exec and their direct reports on big change projects. So things like when we launched Sky Mobile, which is a cell phone business in the UK. Should we do it? And if we do do it, what people would we need? What processes? What would the optimal look like for that? And that kind of thing. But as I say, I went on maternity leave myself while I was in that role and came back. While I had an incredibly supportive team, none of the people that I worked with at that stage had young children.
So none of them knew what it was like to juggle this kind of big day job with a small child. And I really miss the kind of people I'd met when I'd been on leave through antenatal classes and who are basically going through the same experience and having that shared experience. So I found myself really wanting to have that, but with others who knew what it was like to work at Sky because every business has its own culture and its own way of doing things. I really wanted that connection. So that's where it started from. It literally was a moment as I was sort of saying in the mirror one morning, "I've got this idea; I can just create this network. That's what I need. I need a network for the people here."
Then, I realized that other organizations did it, not Sky. So I then used those other organizations, used my own network to find people, find out what they were doing, what was working, what wasn't to put together a bit of a pitch internally to say, "Look, why are we not doing this? Other people are starting to do this. There's no downside here. We should be doing this." But fast-forward a little bit. So by the time I left Sky, I had 1600 members of staff signed up. I had two executive sponsors and a team of volunteers, and we ran everything from an online forum to connect those different employee types to coffee mornings to bringing in expert speakers to do sessions pre-, during, and post-parental leave.
And it was those sessions that gave me the greatest sense of satisfaction at seeing that you can just by pulling people together and talking them through that A, you're not alone in these fears and these challenges that you're facing and B, there's something you can do about it. There are things you can do about it. So we made a decision to leave London as a family back in 2016, and I'd been trying to decide what to do with my day job at that stage. I loved what I did, but I didn't love it as much as I loved it. So I decided to do just that, to set up on my own. So that's what I've been doing for the last seven years. So, as I say, I now work with businesses from small startups all the way through to globally listed companies and predominantly help them in a couple of areas.
So, I predominantly help them support their working parents. So it's run sessions either one-to-one or in groups if they're big enough, and that works for them to help them during that transition, help the employees go through that transition, and also help their managers. So, I regularly run workshop-style sessions because, again, it's better for the managers to be able to talk through these challenges. And again, see, they're not the only ones terrified of saying or doing the wrong thing. Everybody's feeling the same, and there are some things you can do. And then the second area I do a lot of work on is gender balance. So, the other thing I did while I was at Sky was co-found our women in leadership initiative to get more of our women into senior roles.
So those are my two real passions, and they obviously overlap quite a lot. So, I do quite a lot of project work for businesses. But for me, the book, as I say, was very much back to when I first started at Sky in this area, seeing that there were only big businesses doing this and being frustrated that why weren't there more? Why was there not more support? And how could I get this message out there? I also feel that I think, as an individual, there are only so many clients I can take on. I'm never, ever going to get to all these people. So how could I do that? Why not write a book? And I looked, and I couldn't believe there wasn't one out there.
In fact, when I spoke to the publisher, they were like, "I can't believe this doesn't exist. I can't believe." And if you can tell me there is one, that's great, but I haven't been able to find another book that does this and takes people through this yet anyway.
Clint Betts
Have you been... Because it's an Amazon bestseller, the response has been incredible. Have you been surprised by the response? Did you expect this type of response? How are you feeling now, a few months after it was published?
Catherine Oliver
That's a lovely question, actually. I think I hoped for this kind of response because, for me, the need is obvious that it's there, but I wasn't sure. And actually, it's been brilliant. It's been brilliant to see that. And I think the one challenge I really have, and it's obviously part of the reason I wrote the book, is that there's support, and there are things that can make a difference, but people don't know it exists. And that is a double-edged sword, right? Because if they don't don't know it exists, they don't necessarily go looking for it. You don't know what you don't know.
So, for me, a big part of the launch has been trying to get the message out that it exists and there are small things you can do. So whether it's buying the book or listening to a podcast or something else and hearing it and the articles and everything else, for me, the most important thing is helping these people and getting it out there.
Clint Betts
That sounds right. A lot of people who watch and listen to this show are leaders, CEOs, and lead companies, small, big, medium, large, and all that type of stuff. What advice would you have for them, particularly regarding helping working parents? Let's start with that one.
Catherine Oliver
I mean, there's an awful lot you can do, and I think if somebody's out there and they haven't really got much of an idea, and in fact, I spoke to the CEO EO of quite a big US firm last week and he was like, "I don't actually even know what we're doing in this area right now." It's not necessarily on their radar immediately, day to day, but they're conscious of it. You see a lot in the news. They're aware it's a growing issue, and actually, even the number of people who are parents who are working is going up the whole time. The stats show that there are more and more of us and more and more parents are both working and both working full time. And so it's a growing demographic in terms of your employees.
But from a business point of view, I think the first thing you can do, there's some easy stuff, is to say, "Look, where are we now? What do we provide? What do our people think?" So talk to your people and ask them; you could do this very easily with your HR teams or people teams, and get them to just go and do a little focus group and say, "What's your experience been like? What's been really good? What's been not so good? Where do we do well? Where don't we? What could we change? That would include everything from their managers being up to speed and helping them to be supportive of what provisions they make in terms of maternity and paternity and all that kind of thing. So that's definitely the first thing to do.
And then check your numbers. Are you keeping people through this journey? When they become parents, do they come back, or are you losing them to the competition? Are they going elsewhere? So, sort of understanding what your numbers are and your breakdown of your employees is definitely something else to think about. And then I think there's some harder stuff, so then sort of moves or goes up. But once you've done that and you've got that basis of knowledge, if you like that data points that you can look at. You could probably tell this from my background in strategy and big projects; to me, there's a logical way to tackle this stuff. And it's exactly the same as you would ever do any other business.
You wouldn't launch a product without researching your market and getting your numbers together, anything else. So why would you do anything different with this? So, for me, it's exactly the same. You get your data, and then you have a look and say, "Okay, what can we do with this? What would our program of change look like?" And that includes training your managers. It includes having sessions potentially pre-, during, and leave. Now, obviously, what I would say to people is if that's a step too far and actually interesting, a lot of the conversations I'm having are with businesses who don't yet provide support, and they're gifting the book as a start. It's a great start. It is a really nice way to say, "We care, we get it.
We're trying to do something. Here's a really quick, easy way of going. Here's the start of a tent." Actually, another thing that didn't occur to me and probably should have done is quite obvious. A lot of people are buying a few copies just to have around the office so that somebody can pick it up and put it down when it's useful for them, particularly managers. Sometimes, I'll do training sessions for people, and if they're not a manager of somebody immediately going off on leave, then they might forget. And some of the stuff that was the best one in the world, even if I run hopefully the most amazing training session or workshop, they still might forget it when it's really relevant. So having something to look back to and thumb through is obviously a really helpful thing.
Clint Betts
Now let's do the reverse of that. What advice do you give to working parents or soon to be working parents?
Catherine Oliver
Soon to be working parents. I mean, obviously, there's an awful lot I could talk about here, but I think the big thing is to think ahead. So for a lot of people, when they're having a baby, especially adopting a child, whatever, they're having a child in their family for the first time. It's a very overwhelming thing. It's a very big thing in your personal life. It's probably one of the biggest things that happens to you in your life. Full stop. Until you are just so focused on that, I know I was; all I could think about was I'm having a baby. "Oh my god, I'm having a baby. What does that mean? What have I got to buy? What have I got to prepare for work?" I knew I wanted to go back to work, but for me, work is tomorrow's problem, right?
You're not remotely worried about that right now; that can wait. So actually, what I say to people, and a lot of the reason for the sessions, is to help them bring that forward and say, "Let's just have a look." Because there's a lot of stuff probably in the back of your mind, that's niggling, and you're worried about, and you're concerned about, and you're pushing it away. But actually, if you just spend a little bit of time thinking about that right now, there's some stuff you could do right now, even before you go on leave, that's going to make a really big difference to your experience both while you're off on leave and then when you're coming back into the business.
Things like, for example, thinking about what contact you might want when you're on leave. So, if you don't talk to your employer about this, and obviously, it varies a little bit around the world, but most laws protect people when they're on parental leave. So most employers are so busy, and individuals are so busy with their handover and their projects and getting all that sorted, maybe bringing somebody in to cover the role or divvying it up or doing it however they're going to do it. They don't think about that. So if somebody goes off and leaves, you might get a message saying, "I've had the baby." And that's it. And then nothing. I remember my email being switched off, and I was wondering if I'd been fired. I was like, "What's happening? Why have I got no email?"
And it was because the company policy was, "Leave her alone, she's on leave, that's it, off she goes." So if you don't have those kinds of conversations and say, "Actually, to start with, I'm probably going to be really knee-deep in it. I don't really want anything other than social contact. But actually, after I've been away a couple of months, I really want to know how that project turned out that I was working on. And I'd really love to know about any big changes in the business. And then when I'm looking forward to coming back, actually, I'd like to come in and do some days." So we have something in the UK that I know doesn't exist in the US yet called KIT days, which are keeping-in-touch days. And you can basically be paid for some days while you're off on leave.
And the idea is to help you reconnect. So to help you start [inaudible 00:14:07], you might talk about that and what you're going to do with that. So there are all sorts of things you can do beforehand that really will make a material difference while you're off or when you're coming back.
Clint Betts
How do you think AI affects everything that you're talking about here? Does it affect it at all? Does it mean, "Hey, we may not even have big companies anymore?" How are you thinking about that currently?
Catherine Oliver
I think, obviously, a lot of AI can be really helpful in terms of looking things up, finding information, and going through it. But I don't think for me, in terms of what I do, there's no direct substitute for that kind of conversation part. And actually, the workshops I talk about... So where you have big firms that run sessions, the really big thing is that, obviously, I'm just facilitating it at that point. You've got people, again, you're building a network between individuals, which obviously is going to help them collaborate, help them in their day jobs massively, help them have those connections, which you just sort of can't get through that.
But in terms of material, for me, I used it just to find here's a media list, here's a list of people I should be talking to really quickly, really easily. There's some really nice things that will help you. But I don't think that the personal connection side and the sort of fear side, I don't think it can substitute.
Clint Betts
What does a typical day look like for you? You sound like you have a very interesting job, and every day might be a little bit different.
Catherine Oliver
Every day really is different. It starts and ends the same way because I have a daughter who is now 13; it just gives you an idea of time. So, my day will start with getting her up and out the door for her school bus. And I try really hard not to look at my email before that because she goes pretty early. So, hopefully, everything can wait till 7:30 in the morning and then typically take the dog for a walk on the beach. We are lucky to live near the beach. So I love that as a way to clear my head. And I'm a big believer because a lot of what I do is remote at the moment anyway, even after the pandemic. And because I work with people all over the world, it's obviously the way it works. But for me, getting out and getting some fresh air at the start of the day is massively important.
And having that sort of social connection. So that's how I start. The rest of the days are a mix of one-to-one sessions with people, group workshops, group sessions, and project work. So what I didn't really talk about very much, but the gender balance work that I do tends to be much more project-based. So, things like helping businesses understand why they're not getting more women into senior roles. And so I often do projects, for example, doing a survey with all their employees, then interviews, and then pulling that all together. So, some of it's data analysis, some of it's interviews for research, and then it's presenting that back to the leadership team. So it really is a massive sort of mix, which is great because that's what I love. I really enjoy that variety.
Clint Betts
Having worked with so many leaders, what do you think makes a great leader, and what do you think makes an average or even mediocre, bad leader? I imagine if they're bringing you on, they probably are a pretty good leader. Thinking forward and ahead on how this would affect their employee base, all that type of stuff. But you've worked with a lot of leaders. Tell us what the best leadership traits are that people should look for or try to develop.
Catherine Oliver
Absolutely. I think the best leaders I've come across are empathetic, and they get what's going through their people's minds, and they inspire people. So I think those are the two biggest things I see. If you can see somebody in what they're trying to do, and they involve you in it, and you're going towards a common purpose, that can be really inspirational, and you get people to follow without having to tell them to do that. And then the empathy side. So I've got a story that's just come to my mind. I'll share if you don't mind, but just to sort of elaborate on that. I remember my early days working with the strategy team at Sky, and it was the first time I was asked to do a piece of work on an operating model for a business.
And I remember thinking, "Well, why are they asking me? I haven't done this before. I don't know why I'm doing it." So this is 15 years ago or something. I remember our strategy director at the time, and she could see instantly what was going on in my mind and what I was worried about. And she just said, "Look, I know exactly where you're going with this. You are smart; you'll ask the right questions, and you'll become our expert. We trust you. Just go and ask the questions that you think need to be asked." And it was massively empowering for me, and it was a massive moment for me, I guess, in my own journey. Just to learn to trust yourself a little bit more. But the fact that she was able to do that was very, very inspirational for me, I guess, but it made a huge difference for me.
And I think on the flip side of that, where I've had experiences with not so good leaders is when they really don't get their people and they don't get their motivations and they don't get their fears or their concerns and they're not quick to plug into that and understand that and help pull people together.
Clint Betts
Another thing that I think would be interesting to hear from you on is just the differences between the United States and the United Kingdom, if there are any in leadership and issues like this. You've already talked about one, the KIT program, the keep in touch, that type of stuff. What have you noticed that one does really well, one doesn't and vice versa?
Catherine Oliver
I think that's right. I think in the UK, we're definitely further ahead with parental leave and the gender balance side of it in terms of programs and initiatives that are taking place. But we're not exclusively the best in that. Actually, one of the most interesting things about the book was doing research about what else exists across the world. What is different? And there are pockets of best practices, as you would expect everywhere, just in the same way as there is with leadership, etc. But you'll see, for example, that in China, India, and Spain, they have paid nursing breaks. We don't have that in the UK. In the Nordic countries, they're famous for having longer periods of paid leave for people.
In the UK, we have a long period of leave, but you only benefit from that if you get paid for it. So again, it's almost like a two-tier system. If you work for a really big firm or a really progressive firm, then you'll get six months of pay or more. And sometimes that's now increasing for fathers as well as for mothers. So you've got this growing kind of base of really good support, but then there's a lot of people still working and getting the bare minimum. And I think what I'm seeing is the same in the States. Now, obviously, in the states, it is complicated because you've not only got the federal system, but you've also got states. So, state by state, you get different provisions.
And I remember I've got a friend who's in Nevada, and I remember he was recently on his second leave for his second child, and he said, "You have to take disability leave here." It's not even recognized. So there are some massive variations in what's provided. There's good and bad in both places, I think. It is probably fair to say on that front. But the UK tends to be further ahead. In wider leadership, it's interesting. I think, well, there is a big difference, and I'm probably going to say this because of the area that I work in, but it's the employment law side of it that is very, very different. And again, I've got a very close friend who lives in Colorado, for example.
And so I'm quite familiar on a personal level with the differences when you change jobs and notice periods that seem to be [inaudible 00:21:52]. You finish a job on Friday, and you start a new one on Monday. That just would never happen here; the whole hand, everything is probably too elongated over here. And I think some of Europe's even worse, but there's got to be something right in the middle. To be able to switch that quickly doesn't seem to be in anybody's interest. So it's interesting. It's a lot more cutthroat, I think, in some respects. Even if you are used to working for quite a few commercial organizations, the people element is very different.
Clint Betts
Are you surprised... In the United States, this is a very political topic, this whole idea around diversity, DEI, that type of stuff, and you're not exactly doing that type of work, but in some ways, obviously, you are, particularly in the area of inclusion and diversity. And by the way, I don't know if it's political in the UK, but it is here in the United States where I am. And so, are you surprised by that, and what is your reaction to that?
And have you been asked to speak out on behalf of these issues publicly, outside? Did you know how CEOs are now being asked to speak on things that are well beyond what they do at their company? I wonder if you've experienced that and how you are viewing this conversation and the overall ecosystem.
Catherine Oliver
I think it's a really interesting question, actually. And actually, what you said to start with is also really interesting. I got this feedback when I wrote the book from friends over in the US, even about the term diversity being used differently. You think it's a common term, but it's not. They came back to me saying, "You call yourself a diversity and inclusion advisor. People in the US think that means ethnicity, right?" That's really interesting because here, it means the whole breadth. So, I call myself a diversity and inclusion advisor who specializes in working with parents and women and gender balance because those are the two elements that are obviously personal to me, including my experience, my expertise, and everything else.
But there's obviously a wide range, social state, everything else. Age is becoming much bigger here, and all sorts of other pieces. So it's much more... And you tell me if you think that's different, but my sense is it's just different focus areas. We look at it as a lot more different things pulled together under an umbrella, if you like. But to your point on the politicization of it all, I think that it's really interesting how that's happened, and it's definitely happening here as well. Firms are very quickly in trouble if they don't react to major events and at least acknowledge them. But I think for me, where that comes and it becomes really important is just to put messaging out there to say, "We know this is happening.
We understand it might be affecting you, it might be affecting your colleagues." Gaza is a very recent example here. There was a lot more activity I've seen amongst companies I work with around making sure that something was said and something was done to recognize the tensions that people might be facing in the workplace and the fears that some people might have depending on what community they're from, their religion, etc. And obviously, for a lot of Jewish people, it's not necessarily obvious that they're Jewish when they're working. It's not something that's easier. This might sound funny. Certain religions are obviously easier to recognize immediately, that that's what somebody is, especially if they've got prayers or they've got this or that.
Whereas, if you'd never known some religions, right? You'd never know talking to somebody, even in a conversation like this. You wouldn't necessarily know what my religion was or... You don't necessarily, it's not as visible. So I think that's been very interesting, but it's definitely become, I think, a requirement. But I think more on a human level that it's important to recognize this stuff and just to say, "We get that this is an external pressure that is going to be impacting you as individuals, and as a business, we get that, and we want to try and support you with that." Whether it's right, wrong, or otherwise depends on what it is.
Clint Betts
Do you think this is relatively new? It's really interesting that CEOs, leaders of companies, say you have a manufacturing company or a consumer app or something like that, and the media or whoever in the world is asking you, "Hey, can you give us your take on Israel-Gaza and how things are going? And put out a public statement on that." That is like... One, I wonder what do you think of that? And two, I wonder what advice you have for leaders who are probably experiencing this for the first time since this is a relatively new phenomenon of leaders, companies, and CEOs speaking out on these types of issues.
Catherine Oliver
I think you're right. It's the first generation, if you like, of leaders that have had to do this and have been expected to do this, and they're bound to make mistakes, and they're bound to... I think it's almost inevitable; it's a bit like... I'll get asked often like, "Well, we don't want to do anything on diversity inclusion or on our gender, for example, until we know exactly what we're doing." And so they hold back. And my advice has always been don't hold back. Explain it's a journey and you're going to make mistakes as you go. And I think to me, they're parallels with this. It's not; I don't think a leader should be expected to have a really strong view on something that's very political.
That's nothing to do with their business because why should they, right? That's not their expertise. That's not what they should be doing. However, they can absolutely recognize it's happening, and it is, as I was saying before, affecting lots of people, and a lot of their employees might be very affected by it and recognizing what does impact their world and how it might impact if they're a global supplier and they've got global, sorry, clients and customers and employees and everything else. I think it should be A, to stand up when something happens straight away, and B noted for saying something. Sometimes, it is like that old thing: saying nothing is worse than saying the wrong thing, but saying something altogether, but just making sure it is human.
It's a human response and it takes into account what their people might be feeling first and foremost. And by their people, I don't just mean the people that work for them, but the people that their business interacts with on a regular basis. So their clients and their suppliers and everybody who's in their world.
Clint Betts
Finally, by the way, what an honor to talk to you and congratulations on the book and everything that you've accomplished. And starting this conversation and leading this conversation, so incredible. We end every interview with the same question and that is we believe the chances one gives are just as important as the chances one takes. When you hear that, who gave you a chance get you to where you are today?
Catherine Oliver
I think it was probably one of our execs when I was at Sky. So, another one. I know I talked about somebody earlier, but it was a different one. I'd got to the point of trying to build the parent network, and I'd got as far as I could effectively on my own with very little help. And it was one of those moments where I was like, "Oh, I could ask, but I don't really know this person." It was one of the execs I hadn't worked with very much before, so I didn't have a strong personal relationship with them, but I knew because they ran our TV studios. They would be able to help me with what I was trying to do, which was to get a pilot filmed. And so, in the end, it was one of those, "Oh, I've got nothing to lose. I'll just ask."
And so I did. And they came back and answered within 20 minutes. I had a meeting with them within a couple of days, and they were so blown away with what I was doing. "And you're doing this on the side of your day job with a young child, and you are trying to make a difference. Okay, this is brilliant. What do you need? Yeah, I'll support it, and I'm going to do one better than that. I'm going to get onto our CEO, Jeremy; I'm going to get you in with him because we need to do more of this." And it was so heartening, I guess, for me. It was a frightening thing to do because it was outside of my day job. It wasn't my remit. It wasn't me going to them and saying, "I'm working on this project. I need your help with XYZ."
It was a very personal passion and a very personal thing that I thought I could make a difference to our people, and her belief in me and sort of opening that door, not just opening it but then pushing other doors open, really made a difference. And obviously, it led me to not only not give up at that point, but I was almost at the point of giving up. It not only allowed me to keep going and make it work there but obviously, it's also led to what I now do as a job. I'd never known that ten years or whatever it was ago, that question would've led me to where I am now. And then, when writing the book, I must get in touch with her. You reminded me. So, thanks again.
Clint Betts
That's incredible. That's so great. Catherine, thank you so much for coming on. Seriously, what an honor to talk to you.
Catherine Oliver
You're very welcome. It was really lovely to be here. Thank you so much.
Edited for readability.