Derek Robson Transcript
Clint Betts
Derek, thank you so much for coming on the show. Great to meet you. Great to have you here. You are the CEO of IDEO. Tell us about IDEO and how you became CEO.
Derek Robson
Thank you, first of all, for inviting me onto the podcast.
IDEO is a design and innovation company. I suppose our mission is to create disproportionate impact through design. We spend a lot of time with clients looking at the future and where they want to be and helping them design outcomes and products and services, and sometimes organizations to allow their business to grow. I spent most of my time in advertising, so I've spent probably 36 years in advertising prior to coming to IDEO. A different type of creativity, but still in the creative business. In part, I came to IDEO because I think it may be the most creative company in the world.
Clint Betts
Interesting.
Derek Robson
We work on so many different things. We've been around for a long time, for 40 years, but we designed everything from physical products and services all the way through to designing strategies for companies and then into organizational change. For example, last year, we were working on how do you collect poop?
Clint Betts
Are you kidding me? Really?
Derek Robson
How do you collect poop for, obviously, medical purposes all the way through to how do you redesign a government? That's quite broad. You tend to find... When you come into any IDEO office, and you go into a project room, it's like wandering into a mixture of Pixar meets a teenager's bedroom, and there are prototypes of things on the floor and foam core and sticky tape and just is just so amazingly eclectic. That's exciting. It's exciting to be around people who spend their whole time thinking about new ideas. It's quite electric.
Clint Betts
That's incredible. Everything starts with design.
Derek Robson
Yeah. That's the toolkit that we use. I mean obviously we've been around a long time, we are the people who are most associated with design thinking and human-centered design. Most things start with people, what do people want and need? Then, we will build our solutions from there. That's how it evolves. But we use design tools to help us along the way, and that's been our business for 40 years.
Clint Betts
How do you choose the clients you work with? Because I imagine you can work with almost anybody at this point.
Derek Robson
Well, I mean, it's interesting, when I came into the business, like, I don't know, 21 months ago, I used to play this game with different IDEO people of trying to find a company that we hadn't worked with. Like that game you play with, can I get a search term on Google that has not been seen before? You'd go, "Right," well, you can't have worked with this person, so you'd name a company, and they'd go, "Oh, no, we've worked with them." We've worked with literally everybody.
I think the truth is we like problems, we're more attracted to problems than we are necessarily to brands and businesses. We like a gnarly problem. That's what we dine out on, which is something that's really complicated. That becomes where the business is. We tend to deal with clients who have quite sophisticated and thorny problems, and that's where we are at our best. The way that we work is we work often in 12 to 16-week project cycles, small teams of people, a hundred percent of their time dedicated to really understanding a problem and getting under the skin of a client's business, really spending time with their people, and more importantly, the people who use the products and services that we might be designing for, so you really get a real understanding of what's going on. Often, sometimes at a level that maybe the client hasn't even seen before. Obviously, we've got lots of experience from different categories, which we bring to bear.
I often say that an idea project team is the start of a joke. It's like there's an ethnographic expert with an industrial designer meeting somebody who used to be supreme on the poker network and meets somebody who's an ex-client. Those people will be the people who will help you solve a problem. In a way, that's been the secret, which is the eclectic nature of the people who work here. They have very diverse backgrounds very different.
That's the thing that gets you to the answers. Yeah, we have a really solid and interesting and well-designed process, which we are known for, but it's the individuals, it's the alchemy of the individuals and their backgrounds that makes the business, I think, exciting and different.
Clint Betts
How do you hire and cultivate that talent?
Derek Robson
Well, I mean, we hire from everywhere. It's important to us that we have diversity not just in the makeup of the people but also in different backgrounds. So we have people who've been management consultants, we have people who've been clients, we have people who have PhDs in design research, we have industrial designers, we have UX people. We are looking for people who have quite diverse experiences, and then when they come here, we train them in the way that we do things. Obviously, we have a particular way in which we go about the process of creating and designing things for our clients.
In a way, it's the eclectic nature of who we hire, the backgrounds of those people that is really the special source that makes the company different. There are some of the most amazing people I've ever worked with in my entire life here. They're always tinkering. It's always one of those things, we've got a shop downstairs with machines that could sort bits of your body off if you wanted to. There's always things happening down there. You'd stick your head around the door, and you see things being created and made, and you're like, "Wow, I wonder what that's for." That's exciting. It's like Willy Wonka, but for design, because we don't design just one thing, the output of the company is incredibly varied, and that's exciting.
Clint Betts
What does a typical day look like for you?
Derek Robson
I do a lot of Zoom calls. Well, I do a lot of Zoom calls because, obviously, we are an international business. Sometimes, the morning starts with Europe, and the day ends with conversations with Asia.
And then, you'll often be in meetings like planning for various... It could be a new business prospects talking to clients could be prepping for an actual meeting. Along the way we have all the normal obligations that CEO has for finance and HR and all the stuff that's going on inside the business. And then, you wander in and out of offices looking at work, seeing what people are up to.
I mean, no two days are the same ever, ever. I mean, really ever. That's the thing that makes it interesting because the projects that we're working on are so varied and so different. Different offices are working on different things because some offices have certain skills in certain areas versus other offices. Each office is different, not only in terms of the personnel that work there but also the things that we're working on. It's a bit like walking into; it's a bit of a treasure trove every time you go to a new office because there is always something new that's happening that you haven't seen before.
Also, candidly, I'm relatively new still, so I'm still learning about design. Everything is still, to a certain extent, quite new. Of course then we have the obligations of the people who own us and making sure that they understand what we're doing.
Clint Betts
What are you thinking about AI? How is that going to change design?
Derek Robson
I mean, we have an emerging tech lab and we've been working on AI in its different iterations probably for eight years. We wrote an ethical guide to AI eight years ago. We have an emerging tech lab that spends half of their time in research and development. We are playing and tinkering with AI on our own projects, but also starting to think about how that technology might be applied for clients.
Half the time in R&D and half the time working with clients on problems. I think it's fair to say in the last 12 months, we've seen more projects come to us that have an AI lens. It's one of the only areas I think where pretty much every company is looking at it in some shape or form.
When I took over running IDEO, one of our big clients was Jim Hackett at Ford, the former CEO of Ford, and he's a good friend of David Kelly, the founder of IDEO. I met him, and he was really clear; he said, "AI is the one area he said pretty much every CEO has got questions about." And he said, "I think it would behoove you to look very carefully at what you know and understand as a business and how you can help clients because the technology will be quite..." I mean, we can see it's obviously the thing that everybody's talking about a little bit like everybody talked about digital in the early 2000s, that was another area where everybody got super excited.
I think this is probably going to be more profound. We are working on a number of projects at this moment that all involve AI, and we are having a good time tinkering with and using AI. In project work, I think as time goes on, I mean, I think we will see that actually understanding how humans really use the technology is going to become more and more important. I think we're all excited by the technology at the moment. Then, we have to find ways that it can be applied and that people will work with and use it. The technology is nothing if it doesn't get used. I think that's some of the things that are happening now. The excitement is there, but actually, how are we really going to use it, and how are we going to develop the technology so we feel comfortable in using it? Some of the conundrums are that we've built this technology, and companies have built this technology at great expense, but actually, what is it going to be used for, and how are we going to make it so people want to use it? And it's used in a way that feels natural to the way in which people want to use technology. That, I think, is a big place that really we're just scratching the surface of.
Clint Betts
It's so interesting how AI is going to affect every industry. I would've never guessed that it would affect something like a design, something so creative. But it does and you got to think about it and figure out the best way to utilize it within your company. What about leadership? How do you think about leadership? What are some key traits of a leader? Or even things like self-leadership, how do you lead yourself? We talk about that a lot.
Derek Robson
It's interesting, I think. The only time one really thinks about leadership is when somebody asks a question about leadership. There you go, "Oh, gosh, I wonder how I lead." I think one of the things I suppose I would say having run a number of different creative companies, mostly before prior to IDEO Iran, a British advertising agency called Bartle Bogle Hegarty, then an American advertising agency called Goodby, Silverstein & Partners.
I think, in part, the thing that you learn about creative businesses is creativity; in order to thrive, it needs to feel safe, and you need to create an environment of trust. What that leads to is you have to create room for things that feel counterintuitive in other businesses to take place. You have to leave room for people to be curious and to be inspired. Often, that means that it doesn't happen in your office. Those moments happen outside of your work environment. It means breeding an environment where it's really okay to fail. The thing that I would observe here is one of the things that we do really well is we start designing and prototyping whatever it is from day one. It's almost like you give us a problem and the first thing do is go, "What do we think the answer is?" We might even sketch that, we might design it, we might prototype it into something that is very, very rough and ready, and that is the start of a journey.
In order to do that, you have to feel safe that you can do it, and it might be completely and utterly wrong. I think the best creative environments allow people to play where they feel it's okay to share ideas. I think there is something here that is quite unusual in a creative company, which is that we're quite generous in the way we trade ideas amongst ourselves and with the outside world. We publish, and we teach the way in which we think about the world. That, in part, I think comes from David Kelley, who was the founder who also went on to found the D School at Stanford, is that sense of generosity is really important in creativity is the ability to think through a problem and generate a lot of ideas.
The best and the most prolific creative people generate a volume of ideas that is quite staggering, and they're quite prepared to give them away. It's quite generous and, in a way, it's quite karmic. If you are giving away a lot of ideas, ideas tend to come back to you. I think that's super important if you want to lead a creative business as you create the conditions for those things to happen, and sometimes that means that you have to trust people that they will find their way to do it rather than impose your will upon them. When you do that, creative people tend to be less excited about whatever it is that you are saying.
I think that's important. You have to let people have a certain degree of freedom if they're going to do great work for you.
Clint Betts
What is it about London? Tell me about where you're at in the creative environment, that is, and just the capital of creativity, at least in Europe, it's either London or Paris or something. Tell us about London. What should we know about London?
Derek Robson
Well, it's interesting, obviously now I live in San Francisco, so I have a perspective on London, which is slightly different than when I worked there. London is really powerful creatively because it's a melting pot even though we're not in Europe anymore, that's a different podcast, Clint, that's not [inaudible 00:17:37]. I think you have a mixture of people from different places, an incredibly vibrant art scene, very vibrant design, advertising, and music. It's a place where lots of things are being created. As a result, there's quite a lot of clashing of points of view. It's one of the greatest places. You can walk out of your office as we've got an office in the east of London. You can walk out, and within 10 minutes, you can be somewhere that's really inspiring. The museums and art galleries.
Also, it's a great city to watch people. It's like all big capital cities. I mean, I, something I'd really love, which is just to watch people. Watching people is the observation of people and what they do is actually so important to how we make things is that people have little tells that you go, "Wow, I didn't know that somebody did that." And that becomes something that's really important.
But it's also I think a city that is unapologetic in thinking it's the best city in the world. When I worked there, I thought that we were the center of all things that were great in advertising, and that probably wasn't true, being really honest, but it felt like it felt we were working on important things.
There's a very rich art school community in London, so particularly in the creative professions, there are great universities and great colleges that literally spew out lots of different kinds of people with lots of different backgrounds. It's one of the most international cities in the world. And then people get seduced by these rather ridiculous English accents that really carry [inaudible 00:19:53] real great intellect. We all trade on them, if we're being honest.
Clint Betts
Oh, for sure. It's certainly an advantage; there's no question about that. I feel smarter just talking to you [inaudible 00:20:07].
Derek Robson
I have a feeling that's going to disappear. This is a bit like chewing gum. It's going to disappear quite quickly [inaudible 00:20:13] this interview.
Clint Betts
What about San Francisco? What have you learned about San Francisco, which is known as the technology capital of the world and obviously an epicenter for industry and business in the United States and around the world? What have you learned since you moved there?
Derek Robson
It's a very interesting city, San Francisco, because in a way it's a one-industry city. It really is dominated by technology. There really is that sense of the things that are really important in the world are being created here.
In my time, I've lived through social media and, obviously, the growth of the big tech companies around that. In this moment, obviously we're in an AI bubble and you really do feel like all the major big innovations are happening not far from where you are.
I suppose in my prior life, because a lot of those businesses had some kind of advertising component, particularly Google and Meta and people like that, you would meet those people quite regularly because they would want to come and talk to you about the products that they created and what that might mean for advertisers.
But it is a city that is obsessed with things that are new. Obviously, there's a massive venture capital community here, too, so there's a lot of money here, too. If you sit in a cafe quite close to the office here, you can hear some of the most ridiculous conversations you're ever going to hear in your life. You're like, "Okay."
Clint Betts
It certainly has that.
Derek Robson
Yeah, it has that sense of... People here believe that they're changing the world. Some are.
Clint Betts
A couple of them are, for sure.
Derek Robson
Some are, but many are not. But that's okay. I mean, it is a fascinating place. I will say that. You meet some interesting-
Clint Betts
How do you stay grounded? How do you focus on yourself, your mental health, all of that type of stuff?
Derek Robson
First of all, I'm lucky that I'm in one way, because I'm British, I'm already half empty. I come into circumstances where I have a little bit of... I'm always suspicious of overt optimism. It's been really interesting being here at IDEO because it is an incredibly positive place full of optimism. Everything we lens through positivity. And there are times when I'm like, "Wow, this is so positive. Can I stay this positive?"
I think, look, the truth is being a CEO is like being an ultra marathon runner. You have to plan really intentionally how you are going to do these kinds of jobs because they are so draining. I try and mix up the work itself with space for myself to step outside and regenerate, do things that I want to do.
Fitness is really important, sleep is really important. I've got a friend who coaches professional triathletes, and he has this, I suppose, approach that he believes that CEOs and C-suite executives are like elite athletes. You need to do all the things that elite athletes do. You need to eat properly, you need to sleep properly, you need to spend time learning and educating yourself, you need to regenerate, and you need to be physically fit. Otherwise, you just can't do the work.
I think there's so little attention paid to people who do this kind of job in those areas. I think it does lead to questions about what the C-suite is going to become and what is the role of the CEO as we look into the future is? Is it going to be this lone person who is at the top of a company making decisions in a godlike manner, or is it going to change over time? I personally think it has to change the role. And the issues that people are dealing with now are so complicated that it's not a job that can be done. You're going to need help. You're going to need support.
I think the role of A CEO is going to change quite profoundly as a result of that.
Clint Betts
How are you thinking about the macroeconomic environment, just the macro environment in general, and how are you thinking about it as the CEO of your company? Because, you know, CEOs are now being looked to comment on things outside of their own company, outside of their own industry. People are looking to leaders who lack trust in other areas of society. They look to CEOs for leadership, which is probably a really interesting thing for you. How are you thinking about it?
Derek Robson
Well, I think looking at the economics is always quite hard because if you pay too much attention to it, you can get freaked out really quickly. I mean, I think there's just the general shape of how the economic environment looks long-term. What does it look like in different environments? Obviously, we've come through a period where, for a long period of time, money was really free. People took advantage of that to invest in all sorts of different things. That was obviously incredibly helpful to our business because people were spending that money on looking to design, develop, and innovate in new ways. And then, obviously, when money's not free anymore, then that does put downward pressure on a business like ours. You have an eye on it all the time, but you can't become too fixated on it because there is nothing really that you can do about it.
But I think you're right. I mean, I think there is; we're at a time when there's more trust, I think, in institutions outside of government than there is for the governments themselves. In part, that's to do with the leadership of some of the people who've been running governments across the world. In some cases, it's because there are businesses that have taken on a much wider remit and responsibility, and in some cases, are way bigger. Just financially, you look at the size of some of the biggest corporations in the world, and they're bigger than countries, and so obviously-
Clint Betts
It's crazy.
Derek Robson
It is. It's crazy.
Clint Betts
Rockefeller would be freaking out, how much control over these... All of these companies that got busted up because we were too freaked out back then. Now they'd be like, "Whoa, why haven't you done that here?"
Derek Robson
Well, there are a number of things. I think we both know what they are. There are a number of things, particularly in the tech space where you go, it's probably time for you to get broken up a bit. That will probably happen over time, and that will be good. That will bring innovation as we bring more competition around certain areas.
I think the truth is corporations and the people who run those corporations are being asked to look at things that they weren't asked to look at before. It's not just about making money anymore; it's about how you make your money and in what way you are making your money. What are you doing to the planet? How are you engaging employees? Do you have a diverse workforce? Are you inclusive? Do you have a sense of belonging? All of those things are critical to how you run a company and how you should run it. But in a way, it's not just enough for a corporation now to make a ton of money, that's one barometer, but it isn't the only one. Obviously, people have lots of opinions about companies that make a lot of money but aren't doing particularly wonderful things for the environment or society. And that's when they come under pressure. That's probably not what a CEO 60 or 70 years ago had to worry about too much.
Clint Betts
For sure. I can't imagine they did.
Derek Robson
Or did they?
Clint Betts
I can't imagine they thought about it once. Derek. Finally, we end every interview with the same question, and that is at CEO.com, we believe the chances one gives is just as important as the chances one takes. When you hear that, who gave you a chance to get you to where you are today?
Derek Robson
Well, I'll start out with a story. When I was trying to get into advertising, I wrote 175 letters to advertising agencies in the UK. I got 95 rejections in one day, a lot of rejections in one day, and I got two interviews. One of those interviews was a company called Ogilvy and Mather Direct, which is a direct marketing company, part of the Ogilvy and Mather advertising empire at the time. And there was a man there called Rod Wright who gave me... I was not central casting, so I'd not been to university. I'd just turned 20, I got carded everywhere I went. I could go past a pub, and people would ask, "Can we see your ID?"
And he took a chance on me. Ever since that day, I've felt like everywhere I've worked, when I've got into a position where I can affect something or make some change, I've worked hard to pay that back.
I started an apprentice program when I was at Goodby, Silverstein and Partners, we started a school, nothing to do with me, I just helped support the school there. It could be for underrepresented communities to learn about creativity. Rather than paying like $60,000 to go to a college, they paid nothing. We taught them in the evenings and alongside people who were working in the industry. That was incredibly powerful.
Again, not my idea, but something that I supported. One of the things that's happened to me since I've been in America I think, is that sense of the karmic elements, which I would've probably dismissed if we're still in London, I think is really true. If you do something good for somebody, they do something good for you, you pay it forward. That's profoundly powerful and I wish more people did that.
Sometimes, just asking somebody for help is a very simple thing to do, which I don't think we do enough in businesses. One of the things that's really interesting about this place is we work together as a group. No one person goes, "I did this." "Derek did this, not Clint." No, that's just not how it works. That sense of generosity and openness to help others, I think, not only makes a great company, but I think it makes a great society. I think if we did that more often and we really listened to what people are asking for, I think we could probably make the countries that we live in better.
Clint Betts
I think you're right. I think you're absolutely right. Derek, thank you so much for coming on. Seriously, what an honor.
Derek Robson
Thank you very much, Clint. Really enjoyed it. Thank you for inviting me.
Edited for readability.