Joe Davis Transcript

Clint Betts

Joe, thank you so much for coming on the show. Means a lot to have you. You sent me a copy of your book, actually, prior to this interview. Let's start here. Give us a sense of why you wrote this book. The book is called The Generous Leader: 7 Ways to Give Of Yourself For Everyone's Gain. Everyone should read it. It's a great book, by the way, Joe. Well done on this. Give us a sense of why you wrote this.

Joe Davis

Well, thank you. Thank you. It's great to be here first, and thank you for the comments on the book. Well, I have a handful of whys. I won't go through them all because your listeners won't all be that interested. Although, as I was wrapping up my time, well, coming out of COVID, then wrapping up my time as head of BCG North America, a lot of my colleagues said, "You should really write a book about leadership." You mentioned the title Generous Leader, which means obviously I have a point I mean to make, which is really about connecting with people.

When I started to write, I talked to one of my colleagues, and I said, "Oh my gosh, Brene Brown, a million people read her book, Adam Graham. What am I going to be? He said, as a friend, said, "Joe, if you move eight people, you'll make a difference." Actually, I wrote it in hopes of moving eight people. Now, my aspirations are now higher than that, but that's a lot. I want to send a message about what I think a leader holistically needs to be. If I can move some people down that path, then that's why I wrote it, and that'll be a success.

Clint Betts

Well, you even got Adam Grant to write a

Joe Davis

I know.

Clint Betts

... a little blurb here, which was incredible. Well done there.

Joe Davis

Thank you. Thank you.

Clint Betts

What is a generous leader? What does it mean?

Joe Davis

Well, to me, it really means a leader is someone who gives of themselves freely without expectation of direct personal benefit so others can grow, develop, and thrive at their full potential. I have to say, it doesn't just mean being nice. You and I both know as a leader, you gotta get results. No results, no job. I'm not arguing that, and you still gotta be a damn good manager and all these things. But I'm a big believer in that the more your team is thriving, humming, cruising, the better the organization's going to do, your organization, your team, and the better you're going to do. That's really what it is about: ensuring your team is firing all its cylinders so you get the results you're looking for.

Clint Betts

People should read the book because some of the answers to the questions I'm going to ask you are in there. But give us a sense of how you came to that as a philosophy and how you came to understand that and realize that in order to be a great leader, you've got to be generous.

Joe Davis

Well, that's 37 years in the making, though. But let me just ask: how did I come to get it? Well, a couple of things. I mean, I'm no dummy, but I ain't the smartest guy in the room, and I learned along the way. The way I'm gonna be most successful is by surrounding myself with people who are a hell of a lot smarter and ensuring they thrive as best they can. I once heard Alex Gorsky, CEO of J&J, the previous CEO; he said, "The leader isn't supposed to have the best answer in the room. Their role is to get the best answer out of the room." People, over time, would just comment to me on how well I'd connect with them. I'm direct; I'm blunt. I cannot be hurtful because I come from a place of caring, but it is pretty clear. But they say, "My gosh, Joe, you're always helping me grow and develop." Just hearing that enough over time and seeing how people helped compensate for whatever I didn't have, and obviously, I had some decent success, is probably how I picked that up over time.

Clint Betts

Well, give us a sense of your journey and your career. I know that you've since retired, although I don't know what that means for a guy like you to retire. I bet you're working just as hard as ever.

Joe Davis

That's one reason I wrote the book, so I wouldn't retire, to your point. But I do say I've retired from BCG. That's okay. Thirty-seven years, you can say that.

Clint Betts

Tell us about your time at BCG. When you look back on those years, what lessons do you have for those who are currently in leadership and want to be a CEO or leader?

Joe Davis

Wow. Well, we could go ... Okay. I'll try to keep ... We could go on for too long on that, Clint. I wouldn't let you ask questions. I think if you ask me to look back on BCG, I was thinking about this: 37 years ago, I got an offer for a summer job at HBS, summer offer. Two very important things happened to me. One of the professors at HBS said, "Oh, Joe, you'll never survive there. You're not smart enough." I thought a little bit of, I won't say words. Then, after I got my summer offers, also, this is funny, the partner said, "Well, you'll do really well here because you actually can connect with the clients." I mean, there was such an intellectual group 37 years ago. No offense to anybody. But a little bit of a put-down, but a little bit of, oh, I see. My superpower is now, they say, connecting.

But the reason I tell those stories is those are two important stories where someone said, "Hey, you're just not quite good enough to do this." I was damn well going to work my rear off to prove them wrong. No, maybe they would've been right. But I do think if you asked for lessons or thoughts, I do think damn hard work is pretty critical, some level of believing in yourself. I've already talked about driving change and success through people. Then we can get into this, but I think as a leader and a lesson I've learned over the years, the best leaders are always asking questions and listening. By listening, I mean learning something that's in your head, Clint, that ain't in mind. When they're in both of our heads, we get a better answer.

Everybody I interviewed for the books since we talked about that was so critical to them, walking the floors below their floor and talking to the people doing the work, quote-unquote, engaging with their organization. If I sum any lessons, I probably have a couple, but one is really asking questions and listening. That's going to be one of the most critical things to be a successful leader.

Clint Betts

Do you think that's even more true now with the rise of AI and the way everyone's talking about AI and the things that it'll replace? It can't replace what you just described.

Joe Davis

No, no. Well, actually, that's interesting because I mean asking questions and listening one; I think you got a better answer, but it's also actually connecting with people and connecting with people. We can talk about this. I have some views of people even more than maybe in Jack Welch's days or IBM, great company, white shirt, blue suit, everyone, you didn't have to connect the same. Things have changed. We can talk about that if we want. AI's only accelerating. I mean, it's technology that caused that change, the Blackberry many years ago through to every [inaudible 00:06:54] today. AI is only going to accelerate it.

I realized this once I was at a BCG meeting, and we had a multi, three parts of the world meeting. The CEO was in one place, and his hologram was in the other two. It looked pretty real. It looked pretty cool. It was amazing. But it wasn't him. I thought, "Shoot, if a leader's supposed to connect with people and really be there for them and bring their humanity and show their humanity," I mean, he was himself on that hologram, but that isn't real. It says all the more to your point that there's going to be a lot of things that aren't real. The more you can be a real leader with your teams, I think the more they're going to want to follow you and all the benefits that come with that.

Clint Betts

When you think of a group like Boston Consulting Group, I mean people are saying something like AI could kind of replace something like Boston Consulting Group. How did they stay competitive? I mean, how are you thinking about that? What advice do you have for BCG?

Joe Davis

Since I love BCG and I was there for 37 years, the first statement I can say is, I can't remember; it was 20 years ago on the cover of Fortune; the days of big consulting are dead. Our logo, McKinsey's logo, and Bain's logo. It didn't happen then, I don't think it happens now.

Now, to your point, though, BCG jumped very rapidly on how we use AI to do our job better. Maybe a lot of the analytical work will just speed up. It'll speed up. Actually, we used to have libraries, and the librarian, the Boston office, my good friend, was so mad when Google came. He said, "These young people can't use Google to do research. They don't know what they're doing." It's the same thing. Now they learned how to use it. Research, analytics, and getting data that will speed up massively.

A human, well, let's not talk about whether robots or computers take over the world. That's a different thing. But human interpreting that data is something different. Putting judgment against it, especially in the context of consulting, which is a relationship actually helping drive change in companies. That doesn't come from what you study in the AI or in Google. That comes from actually what you learn there and then using that with your clients, relationship with clients.

I actually am not too worried. I'm sure the type, not the type of people, the model, the pyramid might shift a bit, the roles will shift, but the roles of really engaging with your client to help them drive whatever change they want, the computer can't do that. There is still the human factor. Now, if it's a company that's only robots, then we're in a different world then I can have a different conversation, but I'm not too worried.

Then the other thing that's always true, sorry, I went too long, but consulting is interpreting a lot of the changes coming and how a client reacts and works through that change. Quite frankly, there's another point, which is it's kind of good for the consulting firms right now. Now, you're asking a longer-term question.

Clint Betts

It does seem like it's good for consulting firms now, for sure. I mean, just the amount that they can research and put together and present to a client is pretty remarkable. When I was reading your book, it reminded me a little bit of Clayton Christensen's book, How Will You Measure Your Life, and this whole idea of what you just described, what it means to be a leader, and the impact you can create in your life, both negative and positive. You must have bumped into Clayton at HBS.

Joe Davis

He was a BCG-er.

Clint Betts

We lost him a few years ago; he was a great man. But how do you think about that, and how do you think about the impact you can have in your life, both positively and negatively?

Joe Davis

Well, I mean, you're asking, I won't give away [inaudible 00:10:43], plus 60-year-old guy, so you think about it differently from a plus 30-year-old. But I will maybe borrow from Arthur Brooks for a minute because I just read that book, Strength to Strength. But I do think, and this ties to my concept of a generous leader or leaders helping drive people. I mean, really, if I look back on the way you said that about life, and some people asked, "What's your legacy or what are you proud of?" I mean, a story, one time I had maybe 15 years ago, an email from a friend, a guy who worked at BCG 15 years before that who just got promoted to CEO somewhere. He said, "Joe, I just wanted to thank you. I got this job because of you." Of course, I responded, "Well, no, you didn't. You did it." He said, "Well, no, no. Fifteen years ago, I asked you a question, and you answered it in a way I didn't expect, and it set me on a different trajectory."

That's legacy, actually listening to the person that had the question, engaging in what it is really they want to talk about, and then obviously the advice, whatever it was, I have no recollection, must have been fine. They've given your best advice. Really, you want to touch people in positive ways.

Now you said positive and negative. I mean, well, I'll tell a funny story. Can I tell a funny story just about the importance of developing people? I was at P&G, my first job as a sales rep, and I got promoted. If you skimmed the book, you saw this, but I got promoted after a couple of years, rode with my, there were career sales guys and one manager, but the management track. The career sales guys, I thought they were old men. They were 40. I was 25, so that seemed old to me. I would ride with these people every two weeks and never say a thing because I was scared to death.

Then, it came time to do the year-end review. I wrote down all the facts and everything they should do better according to the book and everything I'd learned in my big two years because now I could hide behind the paper. I started in this review, and about two minutes in, this guy named Rich said, "What the blank, Joe? You ride with me every two weeks, and you've never said a damn thing." Well, it was all fear at the 25-year-old, but there was a powerful lesson in there. You cannot develop your own people, whether because you're afraid, whether because you think it's all about you, or whatever. I mean, that's a disservice to them. It's a huge mistake for you.

But also there, I was afraid to tell the truth. I was just afraid at that stage. I was afraid. When I walked out, my boss said, "Never again write a review where everything on that piece of paper they haven't heard somewhere." It was a very powerful lesson to me, but it was also a lesson on how one could easily make a mistake. You don't want to give tough feedback because you don't want them to not like you. Well, that's not very helpful. By the way, that's all about you. That's being selfish.

Clint Betts

How did you manage to balance your life? What do you think about that?

Joe Davis

Well, I have a lot of answers to that one, too. I mean, BCG is replying by the question whatever, 60 to maybe 50 to 80 hour week place. I'm not sure how many 50s there were, but there are probably some. But typically, not so much today on the road four days a week. I have four children, married 40, I don't know, 43 years now, nine, eight grandchildren. It's funny because my kids will say, "But Dad, you were never gone." I was gone four days a week for 20 years, and I didn't have FaceTime or whatever it is on this thing [inaudible 00:13:58]. For me, as my wife always says, the first thing she says is, "The day we know you'd rather be gone than here is the day we got a problem." I love my job, but I want to be with my family.

When it comes to balancing, first off, you have to love your job because you don't love it, the dis-love or whatever comes home too, and that's a real burden on the family. Then I just went out of my way to, one, really blur work and life, any opportunities to bring my family into work. We had family retreats and kids' day at work or Halloween parties. They came.

But also, one little trick I would do is never miss what was important. My parents were divorced. My mom was a school teacher and couldn't make anything. She made one junior varsity basketball game that I can recall in my life, but I was mad then. Now I understand she had to put food on my table and my brothers. But if my child, one of the children, had a little, you know how they have skits in grade school, a little thing at 4:30 in the afternoon, your smile says it all. It's silly as heck, but if you're not there, they know my mommy and daddy or daddy isn't there. I would get on planes and make it to that 4:30 thing or 6:00. Then I'd get up damn early in the morning and get back to the client. People said, "What are you doing?" I said, "Well, I can't miss this event." I was quite conscious.

It's funny because I was gone a lot, but I was quite conscious about attending what mattered most or what I interpreted as mattering most to the family. That was just one little trick. I mean, first off, I love the job. I love my family. If those two go together, you'll work on it damn hard. But then I just look for my ways. I remember on weekends, people said, "Do you golf?" I said, "Well, not anymore." Who's going to give up one-quarter of the time you have with your children if golfing takes half a day or two-thirds of the day?

Clint Betts

Golfing takes forever.

Joe Davis

It takes forever. I know, it's a lot of it. Well, I'll tell you now, I have my children love, a couple of my children are into it, and my grandchildren are into it, so now I can golf all I want with the family. Now, I had to give it up for 30 years, but who cares?

Clint Betts

That's the way to do it. That's the way to think about it.

Joe Davis

The other thing I'd say is I never gave up on what mattered. Personally, to me, running's important for just [inaudible 00:16:05]. I wouldn't give up now. I might have to get up an hour earlier than I might have before, but I didn't give up on the things that kept me healthy and on track. You give those things up, and then you got resentment starts to; we can go into a different conversation.

Clint Betts

What reading recommendations would you have for us?

Joe Davis

That's a funny question. I typically read Spy Now, Ludlum, Jack Reacher, and this kind of stuff. That's my fun stuff. But if you ask me, I mean, I do think about this: the book Shackleton's Endurance or Alfred Lansing's book about Shackleton. People say, "What's your favorite kind of book?" I mean, I got a lot of favorite books, but they're mostly Jack Reacher things.

But as far as a great story that's about human resilience and courage, I'd read that book if people haven't read it. That'd be one. I can't recommend great business books because I didn't read a lot of great business books. I think I live business, so why would I? Sound silly. That means no one's going to read my book. I get the risk of what I just said, but it is what it is. I like a good story that has messages.

Clint Betts

I think you're right about that. No question. How were you thinking about our current economic situation and tariffs? I mean, this isn't a political show or anything like that, but if you were advising companies today, what advice would you give to them because it seems like every day is pretty uncertain?

Joe Davis

I'm just laughing because now that I have left BCG, I noticed the BCG answers, which are in times of uncertainty; of course, plan for all the different scenarios and hire us to do it. That's a little silly. But I tell you, I actually was talking, I haven't talked to, I was talking to one of my colleagues today. I haven't talked to anyone since I left really in any serious way. But of course, whenever things like this happen in this one, well, I mean, we can pick; it's not political, you said, but it's humans causing this one. COVID was a little different, but it's the same thing. People freeze. What's going on? Or you could say, "Slow down and take stock," whatever you want.

But then you figure out in some version I got to get on with it, get on with something. That's what I think people are starting to do and have to start to do. It's going to be an uncertain world, given the way the current president likes to operate. You're right; it's not political, and none of us are shrinking, but it's just unquestionable it's going to be uncertain. But that's going to continue, and so you're going to have to just figure out how to operate in that uncertainty while keeping your business humming.

But I think that would be the main thing to think, is you better expect twists and turns and how do you ensure the core of your business is where it is, which then goes to obvious things. I mean, is your brand solid? Is the stuff your service or product, and are the people all humming because that's more important than anything? If your people aren't humming, nimble, et cetera, you're going to have a hard time adjusting when you need to adjust.

Clint Betts

What's been some of the most challenging leadership moments that you've faced?

Joe Davis

Challenging leadership moments? Well, it's funny because I mean, of course, COVID hitting and the uncertainty, and literally, I remember the day I did a video like this, except it was a different tool. Actually, it was just a network video then to say we're going to shut down every office in North America, which was like 27 offices, and stay at home. Talk about insanity. I mean, like, what? Who would do that, you would say? Then, all of the uncertainty of that moment and every decision. That is probably as challenging a moment as I've ever seen and most people I talk to.

Now, I love these kinds of things. For me, this is just heaven on earth. But I'll tell you, it just drove home some important things. The power and importance of understanding where your people are coming from, not where you're coming from, but where they're coming from.

Well, I'll tell a quick story. I had a call. He said, "Joe, when I ran North America, 70% of the staff were under 29." Now, I wasn't under 29, I can tell you. I had a house with a lot of bedrooms because I had four kids. Someone said, "Joe, you don't understand what's their life." I got on the phone with one of the second-year people. He was on his bed, and I said, "Whoa, you're working on your bed?" Not even on his bed, but he was on his bed, and he said, "Well, yeah, my apartment's so little. My living room blurs into the kitchen, the dining room's all part of it, and the bedroom. One week, I get the bed, and my wife gets the couch. The next week, she gets the bed, and I get the couch." Whoa. That wasn't the world I was living in. It was very powerful. You must connect with your people and understand where they're coming from.

Then another very, I mean, vulnerable or humble, authenticity and honesty are critical in those times. I mean, you probably ever saw Arnie Sorensen's video when the CEO of Marriott talked about how we're going to get through this. He was dying of cancer. He's bald because of cancer. It's very powerful in [inaudible 00:21:07]. He just told the truth: we're furloughing people. I'm not sure when we're going to get back, but we are going to get back.

Scott Kirby told me a funny initial story as far as being humble and honest when you're in moments like that. He was going to go tell the entire United Airlines team as CEO of United, "I'm not sure when we're flying again." All his advisors and CEO C-suite team, "You can't say that. You can't be so uncertain." He said, "Well, what the hell do you want me to tell him that I know when the plane's going to go?" I mean, so he got up there and said, "We'll manage through it." Well, they were stunned he would be that vulnerable or not have the answer as the boss. But in that kind of moment, pretending you have an answer when everyone can smell BS ain't a good call.

Now, why can't we be like that all the time? That was probably one of the most ... Then there were just a lot of twists and turns that I thought were fun. If there's ever a chance to connect with people and the power of motivating and inspiring your people to make sure you get through on the other end in a great place, that is it.

Clint Betts

That's beautiful, actually. Finally, we end every interview with the same question, and that is at CEO.com; we believe the chances one gives are just as important as the chances one takes. When you hear that, who gave you a chance to get you to where you are today?

Joe Davis

Well, it's pretty simple. I had an amazing mentor, a guy named Steve Gumby, who was at PCG forever; now he's CEO of FTI. I worked with him on my first project. He was a hard ass, sorry, Steve. He was a tough guy, but all he cared about was you being better. If you didn't care about you being better, then he kind of stopped. But he had my back. He pushed me. We opened the Washington office together. Of course, he was leading it. Eventually, I let it. Actually, eventually, he led North America. I didn't get it right because of him, but he taught me a lot about myself and pushed me to be better. I mean, he really gave me a lot.

Then I should close with him and also my wife. You asked about how you balance it. I mean, Sarah really was there through it all. I'll tell you one funny story, close. If I ever got testy about the review I got at the end of the partner review and thought this wasn't fair, she'd say, "You know Joe, you get mad, and you're grumpy for four to eight weeks, and then you forget about it, so why don't you just forget about it now?" [inaudible 00:23:26]. I thought, "Oh, well, that's a good thought. Why be mad for ..." I said, "Well, I want to be mad." She goes, "I know, but so just let it go right now." What good advice. Good advice.

Clint Betts

That's incredible advice. That's awesome.

Joe Davis

Isn't it amazing? Just let it go now. Whoa. Okay. If I don't, that was called humbling, like what's wrong with me, just to be grumpy?

Clint Betts

It's incredible. Joe, thank you so much for coming. I highly recommend everybody check out your book, The Generous Leader. Here it is again. Thank you for sending this; by the way, it meant a lot to get that from you. Appreciate you coming on.

Joe Davis

Thank you, Clint. This was a lot of fun.

Clint Betts

Thanks, Joe.

Joe Davis

Take care.

Edited for readability.