Kamran Ansari Transcript
Clint Betts
Kamran, thank you so much for coming on the show. Hey, you are part of Headline Ventures, which is an incredible venture fund that has been in a lot of incredible deals, and it's a global fund. I was trying to think before we hopped on the call: how many funds do I even know that are like yours? It's really interesting. But tell us, hey, you're a venture partner there. You've had an incredible career even beyond Headline. Tell us about how you got to where you are.
Kamran Ansari
Sure. Thanks for having me on; it's great to be here. I've been in the venture business for about 20 years. I stayed in the tech business for about 20 years, both in Silicon Valley and in New York, and started out at a fund called Tenaya. I then spent many, many years at Greycroft in New York. And then when I was at Greycroft, Headline at that time was called e.ventures, and before that, BB Capital, they were our sister firm. So the two firms worked very closely together for a long time, and we still have a lot of deals in common, so we raised a couple of growth funds together. And so the two firms have known each other for a long time. I've known the core folks there, Andreas, Tom, and Matias, for a long time at e.ventures and now Headline. So, it's been great to work with them. And I started out at Greycroft at a bunch of our fintech deals, starting with Venmo and Braintree and Azimo and Recurly, a bunch of others, and then expanded also to e-commerce and then a few other things.
I also found it valuable to go on the operating side, so I've done that three times in my career. Most recently, I was at Pinterest in San Francisco, running strategy and corporate development, doing M&A, and doing international growth. Whatever it took at that time, it was kind of the hypergrowth period of the business. When I started, it was a couple hundred employees; when I left, it was a few thousand. So, it was a very different enterprise than when I got there, but I think that's also part of the magic. So, I've seen the operating side; I've been a venture investor and am fortunate to have a number of good portfolio companies in exits.
I invest today on the pre-seed and seed side out of a small vehicle that I run called Capital Ventures, which has been kind of getting going the last few years. Then, I have a relationship as a venture partner at Headline, where I have worked primarily with the fintech pod of the last couple of years to help them look at more mature, I would say, series A and series B companies in the fintech space.
Clint Betts
Yeah, tell me about fintech. I mean, that seems like a focus of your career on the investing side and otherwise. It's an interesting time for fintech, right? And with AI coming in, I wonder how you're thinking about the future of fintech and how it's going to change. Sometimes, when I think about that whole sector, I think it's in its infancy, and then I wonder why banks don't innovate. Tell me, what's the state of fintech in 2020?
Kamran Ansari
Well, I'll take the first question. I'll take the last question first. Banks don't innovate because they don't really have to. They're very entrenched in established, phenomenal businesses with high gross margins and great profits. And it's not like you're seeing customers and businesses in droves leaving JP Morgan and Citibank and running out the door. So, I think that the banks will always be there, and they've embraced innovation to some degree, some more than others.
One of the real issues with the Silicon Valley, Silicon Valley Bank, and First Republic, kind of transitions that happened in the last year or so was that they were two of the more innovative, digital-friendly banks; you lost that aspect. But you're right, fintech's in transition as a sector; I think the nice thing about fintech is that it's a super category, it's a mega sector. It is not like some niche part of the economy. I think, by some accounts, the largest portion of GDP is financial services. I think that healthcare is kind of one and two, neck and neck.
So, there's a lot of market opportunity across what I consider to be the four pillars of fintech, the four main kinds of buckets, each of which itself is a super category. So payments, lending, asset management, including stock trading and all that kind of stuff, and then insurance. So, and all four have had different dynamics, and I think payments has always kind of led the way. The more established successful companies, the public companies that you've heard of, have historically been payments companies, but I think you're starting to see movement in the other areas as well, for sure.
Clint Betts
What do you make of Stripe?
Kamran Ansari
Look, Stripe is a juggernaut. It is the biggest and baddest company out there in the fintech space. I think, at this point, it is probably the third most valuable private company behind SpaceX and TikTok. And I think the big... There are two dynamics with Stripe that are very interesting. One is, I think Stripe is always in a little bit of a, I don't want to say tug of war, but they have a very close relationship with Shopify. Shopify and Stripe are very closely interlinked, because Stripe powers a lot of the Shopify payments and Shopify relies on Stripe for a lot of the financial services back end that they use. So, those two companies I think have a really robust but tricky relationship. In some ways, they're on a collision course; in some ways, they're competitors, but not really. So, I think that's a dynamic that I've always watched very curiously and wondered about... they don't disclose exactly how much of Stripe's revenue comes from Shopify and vice versa, but that's one thing to think about on a macro level.
The other is that Stripe has one core business, which is payment processing, and that's been their bread and butter, and they do that almost better than anybody else. Particularly for if you want to get something, if you and I, Clint, today we're starting a T-shirt shop. By the end of the day, we can be up and running on Stripe and taking payments.
Clint Betts
Yeah, the simplicity is incredible.
Kamran Ansari
It's amazing. And they're moving, I think the knock on Stripe has always been, yeah, but if you get to a certain size, then if you're a big enterprise, you got to move to Chase payment tech with JP Morgan or somebody else and build your own system and go direct to, I don't know, TSYS or First Data or somebody. But the truth is, they've scaled pretty well, too; I think a lot of larger companies use Stripe now. So, I think that the knock on them has been largely mitigated.
The big challenge they've had is to successfully launch a second or third product that scales. So, I think that's the big thing that they're focused on the last few years is trying to do something else besides processing to kind of diversify the business and capture more dollars from their existing customers. Because at a certain point, you're going to start to slow down the growth rate of processing. And so I think you've seen Stripe Connect, card issuing, attempts at trade credit, recurring billing, and a lot of other business lines that they're trying to get into. And that's my sense for why they're in no rush to go public: they want one or two of those other things to really kind of get a good amount of traction.
Clint Betts
Why don't they just buy Shopify?
Kamran Ansari
Well, first of all, I don't think they can afford it, frankly, because I haven't looked at the market cap today, but-
Clint Betts
That's a good point. Shopify is an enormous company, too. Yeah, good point.
Kamran Ansari
So it would have to be some kind of merger of equals, Canadians and Irish people all in a room, like dogs and cats, and who knows. But I do think there was one business that Stripe bought this year, I'm blanking on the name. They bought a stablecoin company, a very publicized deal for a billion dollars, but they bought another company that was kind of a mini Shopify for creators and influencers. So, they bought some things that resemble vertical versions of Shopify, and it made a lot of natural sense for them to do that. At the same time, Shopify has built payment products, right?
Clint Betts
Yeah, they have their own shop pay and that type of stuff.
Kamran Ansari
Of course, yeah, but I can't think if Shopify has bought a true fintech or payments company. They've made a handful of acquisitions, but it's really interesting. I mean, I have to imagine every couple of years when those two companies sit down and negotiate, rev share, whatever, it's got to be like Reagan and Gorbachev getting together at a summit, 10 guys in suits. I don't know how they do it and figure it all out, but it's got to be very tricky.
Clint Betts
Speaking of politics, you got crypto back. Given this new administration, it seems like it's friendlier to cryptocurrencies and things like that. It seems like the SEC chair will be a little bit more friendly, assuming that gets confirmed, with all that type of stuff. This isn't really a question about politics, but what do you think about cryptocurrency and where things are headed there? How are you feeling about Bitcoin? I mean, it just went over 100 for the first time recently. I don't think it is currently right now, but. And how do you think about that, because fintech is so separate from that in a lot of ways?
Kamran Ansari
Yeah, I agree with that last point, which is that crypto is kind of its own category and beast. I mean, there are companies that specialize in it, and there are traders that do crypto. And I've never been kind of a hyper-crypto person. I don't own Bitcoin; I have nothing against it; it's just there's enough wood to chop with core fintech businesses that you can't be an expert in everything. So I think at a certain point, you can't just dabble here and there, but it's certainly having a moment. But crypto is one of those categories that's had moments and it's had kind of troughs and it's come back in sight. So the volatility is pretty intense. I think it's very much perception-driven, obviously, rather than fundamentals because the fundamentals are not like there's a Fort Knox with a bunch of gold bars backing up a Bitcoin. So, it's very kind of mood, perception driven. And I think you're right in the sense that because of the new administration in the sense that somehow Elon Musk is now an advisor and stuff, and you have all this Dogecoin or whatever, that there's kind of this resurgence of interest and friendliness to crypto.
When you mentioned the administration, however, the bigger impact I think will be potentially on M&A, because when you mentioned the kind of [inaudible 00:10:50] and antitrust and Lina Khan on that regime, I think you're going to see a friendlier M&A environment, and that to me will be the bigger impact for fintech and frankly for venture writ large.
Clint Betts
And how do you think that? I mean, I assume some of the companies that you're invested in are thinking about that and think either about being acquired or acquiring. How do you think this year is going to play out? Has the mood changed in your world with 2025 versus 2024?
Kamran Ansari
For sure, and I think it's driven by a couple of things. One is just certainty around the election, one way or another, that it was going to be decided and over with. And the second is that we were going to get some interest rate cuts from the Fed, and both things have happened. And so I think once that took place, you saw a lot of these companies that maybe were on the sidelines or waiting that are now going to file, and I think Klarna is going to be first, and they've announced that they've already filed and should list here sometime in the next, I'm guessing a month or two. I think Chime will be right after them. I expect Chime to probably list before we get to June and July, so maybe sometime this spring or late spring.
And then, on the M&A side, you saw a couple of deals happen right before the holidays. Brigit was acquired, MoneyLion was acquired, and so I think that the M&A side's picking up for sure as well. And you're going to see more of those deals because the only real M&A that's happened in the last couple of years has been private equity. PE funds basically broke out the shopping cart, looked at all the public software stocks, saw which ones looked like they were the best values, and, one by one, just took them public. Coupa and Sumo Logic and Avalara, and you name it, have all been kind of taken out.
Clint Betts
Yeah, the PE game has been wild. We actually, I have an event next week and we have Silver Lake CEO, Egon Durban speaking.
Kamran Ansari
Oh wow, yeah.
Clint Betts
Yeah, to get a sense for that whole year that he had and everything that they're doing. It's wild, it's wild stuff.
Kamran Ansari
They've been the acquirers, and I think it's been a big opportunity for them because they essentially are the only show in town. The strategies aren't doing it because they're scared of all the scrutiny. The handful of strategic things you saw rumored, like Google, is maybe going to buy HubSpot and maybe the Israeli cybersecurity company. I'm blanking on the name now, but they didn't happen, right? And you haven't seen the Adobe Figma deal get blocked, so you haven't really seen any of these. Wiz was the company that Google was going to maybe acquire. None of these things happened, right? It's just like they're hesitant to kind go down that road, whereas, in private equity, there's not really the regulatory scrutiny of a financial buyer coming in and holding an asset. So, it's just a much safer play, and if you're a venture investor on the board of one of these companies, yeah, you're like, well, we got to get exit somewhere because there's been such clog in the pipeline for liquidity. So you're going to take those opportunities where you have them.
Clint Betts
And if you're Silver Lake, don't you think like, hey, now if regulations do kind of become less and it's a little bit easier to do M&A, now you can sell some of those assets?
Kamran Ansari
That too. Yeah, you're right. I mean, my thought has always been that the private equity folks, once they buy something and kind of maybe rejigger some of the new emerging, a lot of times they'll kind of do a roll-up play where they'll roll up two or three or four companies together and create a larger business, that they then look to then take it back out public in a few years at a higher multiple and a bigger valuation. But yeah, absolutely, they could also now potentially look to some of these larger Magnificent Seven type names who've been basically on the sidelines for the last few years as potential acquirers, along with the more B2B software companies like an Oracle or Salesforce.
Clint Betts
What do you look for in the early stage with your early-stage angel and seed-stage fund? Tell me what you're focusing on there and where you invest and what type of entrepreneurs and companies you're looking for.
Kamran Ansari
Sure. I mean, look, that, to me, has always been the most exciting. It is when you kind of partner with someone at a really early stage when they're still a team; it's an idea. Maybe there's a product or two in the market or a client or two that's in beta, but it's still very much clay that's being molded. What I've looked for there in the last couple of years is that B2B payments have been a big area of focus. That's been one of the major white spaces; I think, in fintech, is all the fintech companies you and I have heard of, the big ones that are public and successful, whether it's including Stripe, but PayPal, Venmo, and Braintree, Affirm, Klarna, Chime, Robinhood, Coinbase. These things are all consumer businesses, right? And Robinhood and Coinbase are trading, but the other ones are all consumer payments companies. They help consumers pay businesses, or consumers pay each other. They really don't generally help businesses pay other businesses.
The only company of scale that does that really is bill.com, which is publicly traded and worth about, I don't know, $10 billion or something. However, it pales in comparison to the valuations of other companies like PayPal. And yet, the B2B payments market is much bigger than the consumer. It's a larger market in terms of the number of dollars that are being transacted when the airlines pay the airport their annual fee or pay Boeing for planes, you name it. Right? Those things are still done largely using PDFs, faxes, emails, trade credit, a piece of paper, and a 90-day line that you get through Bank of America or whatever. So, that whole space is being disrupted right now, but it's been challenging because with B2B, there are so many unique verticals, and each vertical has a very different kind of characteristic in terms of clients and what they need and how billing is done. So you've seen most of the successful companies that are coming out going after a vertical first, and the verticals tend to be the bigger and meatier verticals like construction, healthcare, real estate, things like that, where you have big dollars moving around.
So yeah, I backed a company called Coast, a team out of bread that I'd backed before. The Coast is making payments for the trucking and fleet area, primarily for smaller fleets, not the 18-wheeler but more like HVAC and plumbing. A company called Credit Key does trade credit online for businesses, anything from restaurant supplies to dental equipment, you name it. So, I think that there are a lot of these companies that are starting and growing quickly after B2B. That's really the one area that's been super exciting.
Clint Betts
That's really interesting. What does a typical day look like for you?
Kamran Ansari
Good question. It's almost like no two days are the same, so it's hard to answer that, but I spend most of my time... These days, I don't meet that many new companies every day. I try to be more selective, so the filter for when I will meet a new company is fairly high at this point. And there's a network of 10, 20 other kinds of early-stage seed, pre-seed fintech investors that I do a lot of deals with. So, most of my stuff I share with them and they share with me and we kind of do it back and forth.
So, some of it is meeting new. I met a great new founder yesterday, and it's a deal that I think I'm probably going to try to do in the accounting and ERP area for midsize companies. So, a lot of it's that. I also still have a number of board obligations for Greycroft and 50, 60 portfolio companies that I manage for my own vehicle. So there'll be typically a call or two or, at a minimum, text exchange, email exchange with founders who are looking for an intro or have a question or are hiring somebody, or sometimes I'll help interview candidates for some of my companies. I did that recently for Credit Key; we're looking for a chief revenue officer-type candidate. So, I interviewed some folks. And then a lot of it is also just meeting with other investors and trying to trade notes and deals and get intelligence on what's happening out in the market because I think that there's no substitute for kind of... This is not investing in the public markets where it's all supposed to be transparent information; these are, by definition, kind of private deals. We are essentially trading in information in a way. So you want to get a back channel check on somebody or a reference on someone or to understand, hey, that deal we invested in, where the founders that responded to me has he responded to you? Is it doing well? Is it doing poorly? So, there's a lot that goes on, too.
Clint Betts
Are you in Silicon Valley?
Kamran Ansari
So, I've been based there at times. I'm in New York now, but I go back and forth a lot, yeah.
Clint Betts
I wonder, yeah, that makes sense. New York is obviously the financial capital of the world. But I wonder, given you're probably in Silicon Valley investing in those companies as well, is it coming back versus remember there was this whole idea like Silicon Valley was being distributed, it was going to Miami or [inaudible 00:20:23] or those types of things? My sense is it's as strong as ever. I don't know what your sense is.
Kamran Ansari
I think the AI search, especially, definitely really puts the laser focus back on Silicon Valley. I spent a lot of time there between Pinterest and my time at Tenaya, and I was at grad school at Stanford for four years, so I've spent easily a decade or more in the Bay Area. It's still the center of gravity for tech and venture, and I don't think it's going to be displaced wholesale anytime soon. But you're seeing, obviously, New York is very much a second center of gravity. For fintech, London has had a lot of great companies for a long time. In the US, obviously, you see pockets in Austin, Seattle, and elsewhere. Miami became quite hot during COVID, especially. Boston has always been kind of a big hotbed for things like enterprise software, storage, and biotech.
So you see other areas coming out, but no, SF still has a lot of the great businesses that get started, and the larger companies tend to be out of San Francisco. If you look at the bigger success stories, even the Chime that's going to go public, it's a Bay Area company, right? That just seems to be the case.
Clint Betts
What do you read, and what reading recommendations do you have for the folks you invest in?
Kamran Ansari
I have all the classics, the books Zero to One and Peter Thiel's The Hard Thing About Hard Things. I mean, I think those are useful, kind of as maybe a one-on-one of foundational layer type thing. I read a lot of the other journals in trade publications, such as The Wire at Strictly VC, Axios, and the Fortune term sheet.
I have two or three different newsreaders that I go through. I also deliberately included a lot of foreign publications in one of the news readers because I want to see how a story is being covered. Forget tech stories, just like anything, right? Politics, you name it. How is it maybe being covered out of Europe, the UK, or somewhere else? That's Canada and Australia. Obviously I have to stick to English-speaking countries for the most part, so but just you get a spectrum of is the Daily Mail or are some of these things in the... Are they even talking about this thing, or is this a US-only story? But I would say all of the various news publications, both in tech, in venture, and the broader news, that's kind of what I really consume on a day-in and day-out basis.
Clint Betts
How do you think, and we touched on this a little bit but I wonder just generally, and obviously there's no real answer to this because none of us know, but what do you think about AI and the future of AI and how that's affecting everything?
Kamran Ansari
I mean, that's the zillion-dollar question, right? I think in the venture space specifically, there's obviously been a massive exuberance around AI, and you're seeing a few different things happening. One is that the largest companies that are getting the most funding are the foundational layer, foundational model companies, the OpenAI, Anthropics, those businesses, Perplexity, and Mistral, where Headline is involved out of Europe. So, those companies feel like they're built to last and will be the kind of large businesses that really get developed.
The bigger question mark, and by the way, those asterisks, there is some question on economics because they're also some of the most capital-intensive companies we've ever seen. I think-
Clint Betts
Yeah, for sure.
Kamran Ansari
Well, a record for the most capital-intensive company ever started for a long time, inflation-adjusted, was Federal Express, FedEx, because it took Fred Smith $100 million on day one to buy three planes. I mean, FedEx was extraordinarily capital-intensive, but I think recently OpenAI beat it because it's just the dollars it takes to maintain and build these models, the energy output, and the cost of just the data centers. So, they're extraordinarily capital-intensive, and the economy is still not quite there. I mean, you saw the big news recently where Sam Altman, the pro version of ChatGPT, said, "We're losing money on it, even at the price point we picked." So, there is that whole thing to figure out, right? Obviously, Amazon famously lost money for many, many years until they figured it out. So, it's not insurmountable, but that is something to keep in mind.
The bigger question mark as well, then, is what are the interesting application companies that are built on top of these AI models that actually have something differentiated, protectable, and useful? And then, in the fintech space, we've seen just so many companies, for example, they're doing AI for accounting, helping accounting firms be more efficient and better at doing accounting services. Legal, which is not really fintech, but it's kind of adjacent. Tons of companies doing AI-centric legal services. How are these companies going to differentiate? Is there something protectable basically because of longevity in the market, or how long have the models been trained? I don't know. I mean, that's a big question mark. Where do you want to invest in those companies? This is especially true when these seed rounds are getting a bit up, and you're looking at seed rounds that have 50, $100 million valuations. It's a tough thing to do. The one thing that I heard that I probably agree with is that 90% of AI companies today are overvalued, and 10% are undervalued. The challenge is that it's hard to tell which is which.
Clint Betts
Well, it's impossible, it's like, who just has a plugin to chat GPT and who's built something real? It's hard to even tell what an AI company is, to be honest.
Kamran Ansari
Exactly.
Clint Betts
Everybody's an AI company now.
Kamran Ansari
AI has become like HTML or JavaScript, it's a foundational kind of piece of your business. So, just because you've hooked up to OpenAI or ChatGPT for some portion of your company, that's like saying, I use AWS and I built my site using JavaScript. So it's become kind of table stakes and it's made my job and all the venture investors' jobs a little more difficult.
But I think at the end of the day, especially at seed and pre-seed, this is going to sound trite, but you go back to the founders. If you back great founders, people that have a real passion and drive, enthusiasm for a sector, experience, are able to attract employees, capital, kind of have that center of gravity vibe to them. They tend to build good companies and have big outcomes, and so that's something you want to come back to.
Clint Betts
Yeah, yeah, I think that's right. How are you feeling about the state of venture capital? It seems like we're seeing a bit of a contraction. In 2020 and 2021, it seemed like everybody was starting a fund or syndicate or all this type of stuff. For whatever reason, everybody around me that I knew, yeah, everybody around me is starting a fund. That's not possible anymore; it feels like they're seeing a bit of a contraction. What is the state of venture capital right now?
Kamran Ansari
You're right, it's in transition. I mean, I think a lot of the first time funds that were raised in 2020, 2021, may have a difficult time getting to a fund too. You saw a lot of tourist venture capitalists, people that were especially corporates, companies that saw the tidal wave, and so they started a corporate venture arm or started to do some fund-to-funds investing or direct investing in companies, and those folks have pulled back. Other asset classes like hedge funds and private equity funds are starting to do more on the venture side, and earlier-stage private deals have pulled back. Obviously, famously you've seen Tiger and Coatue and some of these guys pull back pretty significantly on their early stage venture efforts. In 2020 and 2021, I saw Tiger at seed deals and other stuff, and it was crazy.
So all of that has happened, and at the same time, the existing funds, the incumbent funds, I think because of the lack of liquidity and because of the pressure from LPs to generate returns and because of frankly just a lot of losses, right? You've had a lot of companies; I've had more companies in the last 18 months go to zero, do a punitive recap, and enter some kind of bankruptcy or lawsuit than I did in the prior 15 years of doing this, right? And I think there's probably still a few more that are going to happen. So the bloodletting is still happening, and that's been painful for firms.
And so all of that has resulted in an environment, I think where you're seeing a lot of the larger firms become a little bit more conservative and risk averse, which is not a great thing for the industry because it is called venture. It's not called riskless capital, and we're not bonds or something. This is the asset class among all the asset classes that are supposed to be the most risky and risk-tolerant. And unfortunately, you're seeing a lot of reversion to the mean where everyone is chasing B2B software companies. And yeah, those are great companies, but they're crowded trades. Every one of those deals gets 10 term sheets, and I don't think we're going to lose money in those deals, we're not going to make a lot of money.
At the same time, there are entire swaths of businesses like consumer fintech, e-commerce, marketing tech, and ad tech that are just like box office poison; don't go near. And that's become a kind of conventional wisdom. And for me, I think it's an opportunity to look at those companies because I think those are some of the less crowded trades where you might find a great founder who's doing a deal at a reasonable price. And I do think there's a sea change coming where you're going to see some of those outer favor sectors coming back, particularly all flat consumer fintech because the two biggest IPOs are going to happen in the next six months. Klarna and Chime are both consumer fintech companies. So, just the sheer cognitive dissonance alone of seeing other funds generating huge returns from those, I think, is going to force a lot of VCs to be like, well, maybe I should be looking at consumer fintech again.
Clint Betts
Yeah, yeah. Finally, because I want to be respectful of your time, we end every interview with the same question, and that is, at CEO.com we believe the chances one gives is just as important as the chances one takes. When you hear that, who gave you a chance to get you to where you are today?
Kamran Ansari
Oh, that's a great question. I mean, I would definitely say Alan Patricof. So, Alan founded Apax Partners and then started Greycroft, which was almost a retirement project. The first fund raised 75 million from a lot of his friends and contacts. I met him when I was leaving Tenaya and coming back to New York, along with his two partners at that time, Ian and Dana. And yeah, I mean, Alan took a chance on me at the end of 2011 when we decided to come in, and he initially put me on probation. It was sort of like, you're hired, but you're hired at this lower salary for this period of time, and we'll see how it goes. And so yeah, he really wanted me to kind of come in and prove myself.
But also, he's the kind of person that really pushes you, right? He challenges you, and he tells you very point blank, like, "Here, you're doing this wrong. You didn't ask this question, or you're being too soft here. You're paying too much for this deal." It is constant real-time feedback, so you have to be willing to roll with it. But he really, I think, invested that time and effort and gave me a shot.
And the other thing with Alan, and the way that he ran Greycroft, is that it's really sink or swim. He lets you, okay, you want to do a couple of deals, do a couple of deals, but if your name's on them, they don't do well, then that's on you. Right? That's the only way you really see if someone can succeed in the business.
Clint Betts
Kamran, I feel like we should check in with you every month, this is super insightful. Would love to have you back, honestly. Thanks for coming on, and congratulations on everything you're doing. Good luck in 2025, and [inaudible 00:32:55].
Kamran Ansari
Thanks, you too. I'm hoping for some liquidity exits here. Let's keep all fingers crossed.
Clint Betts
Thanks, Kamran.
Edited for readability.