Ranker's founder solved the blogger problem

Clark Benson started Ranker in 2009 because the lists on the internet were junk. Search for the best anything, and Google handed you one blogger's opinion, ranked high for reasons that had nothing to do with whether the blogger knew anything.

"Who's this guy? This is just somebody trying to make 50 bucks on traffic to his blog post. There's no authority there, but Google is ranking it high," Benson said on the CEO.com Podcast. "So I said, 'I'm going to fix that with crowdsourced rankings and deliver the definitive answer to whatever's asked in a list format.' And we've done that."

Now, 17 years and 1.6 billion votes later, Google puts an AI-generated answer above the list. Benson said Ranker has analyzed its own content and found pages holding the same search position they held four years ago now pull about 30 percent of the traffic they used to. The authority problem he built a company to solve came back in a form that does not link out.

Benson is a lifelong entrepreneur who was building companies before the vocabulary existed for it. "When I was starting businesses, they weren't called startups as much as they were just called small businesses," he said. He came up in the record industry, started in business affairs at Virgin Records America, and ran a music marketing agency and a Southern California record store through the 1990s. His fourth company, the teen social network eCrush, went to Hearst in a deal announced in January 2007. It had barely raised money. Ranker is his fifth.

The votes turned out to be worth more than the pageviews. Ranker's data is not personally identifiable. It maps taste, which fans of one show also like and which they actively dislike. That correlation layer powers Watchworthy, the recommendation app Ranker launched in 2020, which Fast Company named one of the 10 most innovative companies in data science for 2021. Ranker put the placement at No. 5 in that category. On the podcast, Benson described pitching that data to streaming services and TV manufacturers, on the theory that connected TV recommendations are still bad and someone should fix them.

Since the interview, Ranker has taken the argument somewhere more pointed. The company now sells its vote data to AI labs, pitching the vote archive as alignment and grounding data for large language models, delivered by bulk dataset, API, or Model Context Protocol server. The sales pitch is that models infer taste from text and get it wrong, while Ranker's users actually voted. "The race for the best AI will be won by those with the highest quality human signal," Benson says on that page. "Ranker is that signal."

Which is a strange and clarifying place to land. The thing eating his search traffic is now a customer for the asset that search traffic built.

He is blunt about what the platform era costs an operator. Algorithm changes arrive weekly, he said, and something that drew a certain amount of traffic suddenly draws five times that or a fifth of it. He reached for Cory Doctorow's name for the pattern, enshittification, and applied it to Google and Facebook alike. Doctorow's theory is that platforms are good to users until users are locked in, then good to business customers until those are locked in too, and then good to nobody.

"That's not fun to run a business when you have no control," he said. "What entrepreneur's not a control freak, right? So that's why I would not choose media if I were starting something else."

The creator economy gets the same unsentimental read. Audiences under 40 have moved to individuals, and Benson does not think the trade was free. He watched the record business lose its gatekeepers, and he is not romantic about what replaced them. "There was a value in gatekeepers knowing this is the music that's really good," he said. "And now with everybody on Spotify making something, it's a little bit harder to really make popular music that crosses over and isn't just lowest common denominator."

On AI inside his own company, he is a productivity realist. Ranker has ingested 30 million entities, each of which needs a short synopsis. That job took an editor 15 minutes and now takes about two. The editor stays. "We have not found that the AI is high-quality enough, even with the really good prompts training, to replace everything."

He starts his day in dashboards, an hour or two spent looking for what moved. He keeps standing meetings under a quarter of his week so he can call one when something actually breaks. He hires for temperament, some of it out of Ranker's own community of freelance writers, and calls it a no-douchebag policy. "The commonality is honestly just grounded people who are really bright but might be a little nerdy."

Asked the question that closes every CEO.com Podcast, who gave you a chance, Benson named his father, a 60-hour-a-week AT&T man who got early-retired and did not want the same life for his son. The offer was a blessing and a financial backstop, and one instruction.

"Be your own boss. Please, be your own boss."

00:00:00 Introduction to Clark Benson
00:00:21 Clark's Entrepreneurial Journey
00:00:54 The Genesis of Ranker
00:01:38 Ranker's Growth and Data Collection
00:02:22 Ranker's Products and Services
00:03:29 The State of Media Today
00:04:44 Social Media and Algorithm Impacts
00:05:54 The Influencer Economy's Effects on Media
00:07:47 Challenges of Running a Media Company
00:09:05 The Coming Consumer Reckoning
00:10:20 AI's Role in Media
00:12:31 The Creator Economy's Implications
00:14:38 AI's Impact on Ranker's Workflow
00:16:33 A Day in Clark's Life
00:18:39 Hiring and Culture at Ranker

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Clark,<00:00:11.423> thank<00:00:11.600> you<00:00:11.680> so<00:00:11.825> much<00:00:12.066> for<00:00:12.211> coming<00:00:12.452> on<00:00:12.549> the<00:00:12.613> show.

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You<00:00:15.541> are<00:00:15.621> the<00:00:15.702> CEO<00:00:16.152> of<00:00:16.249> Ranker.

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Maybe<00:00:17.536> let's<00:00:17.697> just<00:00:17.922> start<00:00:18.179> with<00:00:18.807> how<00:00:18.967> you<00:00:19.064> became<00:00:19.386> the<00:00:19.466> CEO<00:00:19.788> of<00:00:19.933> Ranker<00:00:20.270> and<00:00:20.351> what<00:00:20.496> Ranker<00:00:20.755> is.

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Sure.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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And<00:03:41.421> publishing,<00:03:42.618> but<00:03:42.877> even<00:03:43.120> just<00:03:43.362> generally,<00:03:44.252> given<00:03:44.559> that<00:03:44.673> you're<00:03:44.818> so<00:03:45.223> engaged<00:03:45.789> in<00:03:45.870> that<00:03:46.080> and<00:03:46.194> even<00:03:46.436> ranking<00:03:46.825> a<00:03:46.906> lot<00:03:47.068> of<00:03:47.100> that,<00:03:47.326> what<00:03:47.424> do<00:03:47.456> you<00:03:47.569> think<00:03:47.796> the<00:03:47.877> state<00:03:48.200> of<00:03:48.362> media<00:03:48.702> is<00:03:48.945> right<00:03:49.106> now?

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Honestly,<00:03:51.247> there's,<00:03:51.570> it's<00:03:51.796> one<00:03:51.909> of<00:03:51.973> those<00:03:52.699> questions<00:03:53.168> that<00:03:53.329> doesn't<00:03:53.571> have<00:03:53.684> a<00:03:53.749> single<00:03:54.475> answer<00:03:55.105> because<00:03:55.589> there's<00:03:55.766> so<00:03:56.073> many<00:03:56.735> variants<00:03:57.300> and<00:03:57.364> different<00:03:57.606> things<00:03:57.784> going<00:03:58.010> on<00:03:58.123> in<00:03:58.171> media,<00:03:59.075> but<00:03:59.301> media<00:03:59.640> is<00:03:59.770> changing<00:04:00.854> even<00:04:01.035> faster<00:04:01.610> in<00:04:01.692> the<00:04:01.775> last<00:04:02.087> few<00:04:02.350> years<00:04:02.744> than<00:04:02.991> I,<00:04:03.418> I<00:04:03.932> sort<00:04:04.172> of<00:04:04.252> would<00:04:04.380> have<00:04:04.492> anticipated.

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You<00:04:05.454> know,<00:04:05.919> look,<00:04:06.111> the<00:04:06.255> internet<00:04:06.864> has<00:04:06.976> changed<00:04:07.361> everything,<00:04:08.178> but<00:04:08.258> then<00:04:08.418> social<00:04:08.899> media,<00:04:10.245> um,<00:04:10.886> you<00:04:10.982> know,<00:04:11.223> has,<00:04:11.511> has,<00:04:11.703> has<00:04:11.944> accelerated<00:04:12.665> the<00:04:12.825> internet.

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It's<00:04:13.290> a<00:04:13.370> lot<00:04:13.562> harder<00:04:14.171> for<00:04:14.732> publishers<00:04:15.309> to<00:04:15.405> get<00:04:15.709> traffic,<00:04:16.495> or<00:04:16.831> maybe<00:04:17.152> it's<00:04:17.312> not<00:04:17.616> for<00:04:17.793> a<00:04:17.857> little<00:04:18.033> while<00:04:18.354> because<00:04:18.658> a<00:04:18.738> new<00:04:19.459> platform<00:04:19.956> comes<00:04:20.260> out<00:04:20.437> and<00:04:20.501> you<00:04:20.581> start<00:04:20.837> gaming<00:04:21.158> that<00:04:21.398> platform,<00:04:22.039> but<00:04:22.840> then<00:04:23.065> something<00:04:23.385> changes.

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The<00:04:23.882> platform<00:04:24.683> doesn't<00:04:24.988> care<00:04:25.244> if<00:04:25.404> they<00:04:25.500> send<00:04:25.805> you<00:04:25.949> traffic<00:04:26.366> or<00:04:26.430> not.

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They're<00:04:26.766> just<00:04:26.991> interested<00:04:27.471> in,<00:04:28.112> you<00:04:28.209> know,<00:04:28.689> monetizing<00:04:29.234> their<00:04:29.394> audience<00:04:29.907> and<00:04:30.196> as<00:04:30.293> best<00:04:30.552> as<00:04:30.697> they<00:04:30.859> can.

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And<00:04:32.380> then<00:04:32.557> of<00:04:32.719> course,<00:04:33.269> the<00:04:33.997> biggest<00:04:34.337> change,<00:04:34.806> and<00:04:34.887> this<00:04:35.065> is<00:04:35.291> really,<00:04:36.457> you<00:04:36.538> know,<00:04:36.587> it's<00:04:36.717> been<00:04:36.863> going<00:04:37.188> on<00:04:37.366> for<00:04:37.707> 6,<00:04:38.016> 7<00:04:38.340> years,<00:04:38.665> but<00:04:38.811> I<00:04:38.893> would<00:04:39.006> say<00:04:39.315> that<00:04:39.461> in<00:04:39.542> the<00:04:39.639> last<00:04:40.192> 2<00:04:40.516> years,<00:04:41.896> it's<00:04:42.627> been<00:04:42.725> the<00:04:42.806> biggest<00:04:43.033> change<00:04:43.277> has<00:04:43.374> been<00:04:43.536> the<00:04:43.683> influencer<00:04:44.186> economy<00:04:44.592> where,<00:04:46.109> you<00:04:46.190> know,<00:04:46.303> media<00:04:47.078> organizations<00:04:48.143> don't<00:04:48.450> have<00:04:48.789> as<00:04:49.031> much,<00:04:51.320> you<00:04:51.497> know,<00:04:52.725> an<00:04:52.951> influencer<00:04:53.452> can<00:04:53.597> just<00:04:53.759> be<00:04:53.840> an<00:04:53.936> individual.

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And<00:04:55.051> obviously,<00:04:56.116> you<00:04:56.357> know,<00:04:56.517> you<00:04:56.613> can<00:04:56.693> be<00:04:56.774> working<00:04:57.078> with<00:04:57.174> a<00:04:57.190> support<00:04:57.736> group<00:04:58.040> that<00:04:58.137> helps<00:04:58.457> you<00:04:59.195> sell<00:04:59.420> your<00:04:59.644> ads<00:04:59.836> or<00:04:59.981> do<00:05:00.141> whatever.

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But<00:05:01.729> media<00:05:02.210> is<00:05:02.450> going<00:05:02.707> through<00:05:02.947> a<00:05:03.108> lot<00:05:03.445> of<00:05:03.509> pain,<00:05:03.990> frankly,<00:05:04.471> because<00:05:04.776> of<00:05:04.808> that.

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And,<00:05:06.780> you<00:05:06.860> know,<00:05:07.903> I<00:05:07.999> could<00:05:08.143> talk<00:05:08.464> a<00:05:08.480> lot<00:05:08.656> about<00:05:09.105> the<00:05:09.683> recent<00:05:11.126> Zuckerberg<00:05:11.831> kind<00:05:12.104> of<00:05:12.649> things<00:05:13.130> and<00:05:13.275> whatnot,<00:05:13.772> but<00:05:13.916> that<00:05:14.012> would<00:05:14.173> eat<00:05:14.317> up<00:05:14.413> the<00:05:14.477> whole<00:05:14.654> podcast<00:05:15.311> if<00:05:15.440> you<00:05:15.520> wanted<00:05:15.696> to<00:05:15.760> hear<00:05:15.856> my<00:05:16.081> opinions<00:05:16.482> about<00:05:16.722> that.

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It<00:05:17.139> is—<00:05:18.021> let's<00:05:18.406> just<00:05:18.502> say<00:05:18.663> this.

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I—<00:05:19.609> if<00:05:19.769> I<00:05:19.849> was<00:05:20.266> starting<00:05:20.747> out<00:05:20.972> fresh,<00:05:21.613> I<00:05:21.774> would<00:05:22.030> not<00:05:22.820> be<00:05:23.406> like<00:05:23.830> starting<00:05:24.204> a<00:05:24.237> media<00:05:24.709> company<00:05:25.035> would<00:05:25.198> not<00:05:25.361> be<00:05:25.442> my<00:05:25.605> first<00:05:25.849> pick.

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Why<00:05:27.833> is<00:05:27.978> that?

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Just<00:05:28.398> because<00:05:28.641> it's<00:05:28.835> so<00:05:28.964> decentralized<00:05:29.854> and<00:05:29.918> you're<00:05:30.015> reliant<00:05:30.597> so<00:05:31.131> on<00:05:31.292> these—<00:05:31.858> reliant<00:05:32.214> so<00:05:32.359> much<00:05:32.586> on<00:05:32.683> these<00:05:33.249> huge<00:05:33.556> platforms?

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Yeah.

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I<00:05:35.253> mean,<00:05:35.398> a<00:05:35.415> platform<00:05:35.801> makes<00:05:35.979> an<00:05:36.124> algorithm<00:05:36.542> change<00:05:36.945> and<00:05:37.090> your<00:05:37.251> traffic<00:05:37.767> can<00:05:38.557> go<00:05:38.863> overnight<00:05:39.378> and<00:05:39.846> boom,<00:05:40.104> your<00:05:40.329> revenues.

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I<00:05:41.199> mean,<00:05:41.376> we've,<00:05:41.860> we've<00:05:42.037> seen<00:05:42.263> that,<00:05:42.520> you<00:05:42.601> know,<00:05:42.827> we've,<00:05:43.229> we<00:05:43.520> were,<00:05:43.697> we're<00:05:44.744> a,<00:05:45.791> you<00:05:45.823> know,<00:05:46.129> a<00:05:46.145> solid<00:05:48.046> 8-figure<00:05:48.625> revenue<00:05:49.093> company.

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But<00:05:49.995> we've,<00:05:50.542> we've<00:05:50.736> had<00:05:51.187> algorithm,<00:05:51.589> you<00:05:51.638> know,<00:05:51.863> if<00:05:51.911> you,<00:05:52.008> if<00:05:52.153> you<00:05:52.185> go<00:05:52.217> on<00:05:52.250> Google<00:05:52.395> these<00:05:52.459> days,<00:05:55.089> AI<00:05:55.346> answers<00:05:55.908> dominate<00:05:57.031> the<00:05:57.272> top<00:05:57.529> of<00:05:57.609> the<00:05:57.721> search<00:05:58.074> page<00:05:58.411> and<00:05:58.861> are,<00:05:59.037> you<00:05:59.101> know,<00:05:59.438> there's,<00:05:59.840> there's<00:06:00.080> a,<00:06:01.043> like,<00:06:01.220> let's<00:06:01.428> just<00:06:01.589> say<00:06:01.669> there's<00:06:01.845> a<00:06:01.990> ranker<00:06:02.407> list<00:06:02.953> that<00:06:03.514> ranks<00:06:03.916> number<00:06:04.172> 3<00:06:04.590> for<00:06:04.959> a<00:06:04.991> search.

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Uh,<00:06:07.366> we've<00:06:07.558> done<00:06:07.767> some<00:06:07.863> analysis<00:06:08.425> and<00:06:08.569> some<00:06:08.810> of<00:06:08.906> our,<00:06:09.452> uh,<00:06:09.693> content<00:06:10.271> is<00:06:10.575> doing<00:06:10.912> about<00:06:11.233> 30%<00:06:12.100> of<00:06:12.453> the<00:06:12.581> traffic<00:06:13.143> for<00:06:13.320> the<00:06:13.400> same<00:06:13.945> ranking<00:06:15.245> that<00:06:15.470> it<00:06:15.566> did<00:06:16.770> 4<00:06:16.930> years<00:06:17.187> ago.

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So<00:06:18.455> that's<00:06:18.920> AI<00:06:19.418> and<00:06:19.642> ads<00:06:19.979> and<00:06:20.124> other<00:06:21.264> garbage,<00:06:21.971> or<00:06:22.163> maybe<00:06:22.452> not,<00:06:22.790> right?

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Some<00:06:23.175> of<00:06:23.207> the<00:06:23.272> AI,<00:06:23.673> it's<00:06:23.786> not<00:06:23.978> all<00:06:24.091> bad,<00:06:24.942> but,<00:06:25.842> you<00:06:25.938> know,<00:06:27.448> there's<00:06:28.476> a<00:06:29.215> term<00:06:29.455> that<00:06:29.536> you<00:06:29.616> might<00:06:29.793> have<00:06:29.921> to<00:06:30.018> bleep<00:06:30.323> out<00:06:30.644> that<00:06:30.821> you've<00:06:30.981> probably<00:06:31.238> heard<00:06:31.383> from<00:06:31.608> Cory<00:06:31.849> Doctorow<00:06:32.411> called<00:06:32.588> the<00:06:32.748> enshittification<00:06:34.419> of<00:06:34.660> big<00:06:34.820> technology.

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And<00:06:37.085> that<00:06:37.342> is<00:06:37.551> absolutely<00:06:38.065> impacting,<00:06:38.755> you<00:06:38.852> know,<00:06:38.996> your<00:06:39.173> Facebook<00:06:39.591> experience,<00:06:40.201> your<00:06:40.442> Google<00:06:40.683> experience,<00:06:41.663> and<00:06:42.048> everything.

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And<00:06:43.189> I<00:06:43.590> would<00:06:43.735> say<00:06:43.911> that<00:06:44.072> none<00:06:44.249> of<00:06:44.377> that<00:06:44.939> helps<00:06:46.884> media<00:06:47.207> companies.

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It<00:06:48.159> may<00:06:48.336> help<00:06:48.659> individuals<00:06:49.530> who<00:06:49.611> are<00:06:49.788> creators,<00:06:50.595> but<00:06:50.756> it<00:06:50.837> does<00:06:51.063> not<00:06:51.724> generally<00:06:52.192> help<00:06:52.450> media<00:06:52.757> companies<00:06:53.241> who<00:06:53.338> are<00:06:53.418> trying<00:06:53.886> to<00:06:54.774> create<00:06:55.096> quality<00:06:55.354> content.

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Yeah,<00:06:57.487> I<00:06:57.503> think<00:06:57.664> that's<00:06:57.890> right.

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And<00:06:58.696> yeah,<00:06:58.938> you<00:06:59.018> mentioned<00:06:59.437> Zuck<00:06:59.986> just<00:07:00.227> recently<00:07:00.808> came<00:07:01.050> out<00:07:01.372> and<00:07:01.614> said<00:07:02.323> like<00:07:02.484> he's<00:07:02.597> changing<00:07:02.904> the<00:07:03.049> algorithm<00:07:03.468> again<00:07:04.193> in<00:07:04.338> some<00:07:04.580> way.

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Uh,<00:07:06.964> yeah,<00:07:09.526> there's<00:07:10.074> algorithm<00:07:10.412> changes<00:07:10.799> happening<00:07:11.153> every<00:07:11.443> week<00:07:11.781> and<00:07:12.023> like<00:07:12.329> all,<00:07:12.507> you<00:07:12.587> know,<00:07:12.748> something<00:07:13.070> that<00:07:13.312> would<00:07:13.425> have<00:07:13.618> gotten<00:07:13.876> this<00:07:14.037> much<00:07:14.214> traffic<00:07:14.751> gets<00:07:15.089> 5x<00:07:15.867> all<00:07:16.053> of<00:07:16.104> a<00:07:16.121> sudden<00:07:16.459> or<00:07:17.183> 1/5<00:07:18.057> all<00:07:18.089> of<00:07:18.235> a<00:07:18.251> sudden,<00:07:19.028> like<00:07:19.190> it's<00:07:19.368> happening<00:07:19.773> weekly<00:07:20.339> and<00:07:20.566> it's<00:07:20.809> strange.

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It's<00:07:21.456> like<00:07:21.554> you<00:07:21.635> can't<00:07:21.942> really—<00:07:22.994> there's<00:07:23.108> no—<00:07:23.399> you<00:07:23.885> have<00:07:23.998> no<00:07:24.370> agency<00:07:24.759> or<00:07:24.856> control.

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You're<00:07:26.086> just<00:07:26.410> kind<00:07:26.556> of,<00:07:26.798> oh,<00:07:27.056> look<00:07:27.282> what<00:07:27.395> happened.

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So<00:07:28.994> that's<00:07:29.236> not<00:07:29.462> fun<00:07:29.866> to<00:07:29.947> run<00:07:30.108> a<00:07:30.189> business<00:07:30.674> when<00:07:30.932> you<00:07:31.093> have<00:07:31.336> no<00:07:31.497> control,<00:07:31.901> right?

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As<00:07:32.644> somebody<00:07:33.031> who's<00:07:33.354> interviewing<00:07:33.839> CEOs<00:07:34.259> and<00:07:34.388> entrepreneurs<00:07:35.034> all<00:07:35.131> the<00:07:35.211> time,<00:07:37.580> we're<00:07:37.660> control<00:07:38.000> freaks,<00:07:38.663> right?

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I<00:07:39.132> mean,<00:07:39.715> what<00:07:39.876> entrepreneur<00:07:40.443> is<00:07:40.588> not<00:07:40.766> a<00:07:40.831> control<00:07:41.170> freak,<00:07:41.494> right?

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So<00:07:43.774> that's<00:07:44.015> why<00:07:44.079> I<00:07:44.239> would<00:07:44.336> not<00:07:44.496> choose<00:07:45.042> media,<00:07:45.684> uh,<00:07:46.197> if<00:07:46.342> I<00:07:46.422> was<00:07:46.518> starting<00:07:46.984> something<00:07:47.241> else.

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But<00:07:47.786> yeah,<00:07:48.107> to<00:07:48.188> be<00:07:48.348> able<00:07:48.509> to<00:07:48.733> own,<00:07:49.696> uh,<00:07:49.873> your<00:07:50.114> own<00:07:50.274> audience<00:07:50.692> and<00:07:50.756> stuff<00:07:51.061> like<00:07:51.221> that<00:07:51.398> and<00:07:51.478> not<00:07:51.703> have<00:07:51.815> it<00:07:52.040> owned<00:07:52.361> by—<00:07:52.666> it<00:07:52.762> really<00:07:53.019> is<00:07:53.147> interesting.

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And<00:07:53.565> I<00:07:53.645> wonder<00:07:53.870> what<00:07:53.950> you<00:07:54.030> think<00:07:54.142> of<00:07:54.207> this.

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I<00:07:55.314> often<00:07:55.635> think<00:07:55.828> of<00:07:55.876> this<00:07:56.052> maybe<00:07:56.277> like<00:07:56.438> once<00:07:56.678> a<00:07:56.694> month.

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I<00:07:57.080> wonder<00:07:57.417> if<00:07:57.561> like<00:07:57.754> 20,<00:07:58.283> 30<00:07:58.604> years<00:07:58.861> from<00:07:59.102> now<00:08:00.049> we're<00:08:00.145> going<00:08:00.242> to<00:08:00.306> be<00:08:00.466> like,<00:08:00.771> hey,<00:08:00.932> why<00:08:01.060> did<00:08:01.253> we<00:08:01.429> work<00:08:01.814> for<00:08:02.168> Zuckerberg<00:08:03.195> and<00:08:03.741> Elon<00:08:04.318> and<00:08:04.543> like<00:08:05.346> put<00:08:05.522> all<00:08:05.683> this<00:08:05.907> effort<00:08:06.244> into<00:08:06.485> building<00:08:06.870> up<00:08:07.047> their<00:08:07.272> platforms<00:08:08.026> and<00:08:08.235> their<00:08:08.475> revenue?

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Like,<00:08:09.615> it<00:08:09.759> really<00:08:10.016> is<00:08:10.241> quite<00:08:10.482> interesting.

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And<00:08:11.284> I<00:08:11.397> mean,<00:08:11.605> there's<00:08:11.846> obvious<00:08:12.103> reasons<00:08:12.504> why<00:08:12.665> we<00:08:12.745> do<00:08:12.841> that<00:08:12.986> because<00:08:13.146> that<00:08:13.371> is<00:08:13.547> where<00:08:14.029> everyone<00:08:14.414> is.

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But<00:08:16.499> you<00:08:16.531> know,<00:08:16.819> all<00:08:16.979> those<00:08:17.220> who<00:08:17.380> work<00:08:17.621> for,<00:08:18.679> you<00:08:18.759> know,<00:08:18.823> or<00:08:19.144> build<00:08:19.400> these<00:08:20.666> media<00:08:20.987> companies<00:08:21.340> are<00:08:21.388> really<00:08:21.708> just<00:08:21.885> working<00:08:22.125> for<00:08:22.269> them.

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Oh,<00:08:23.728> I,<00:08:24.033> I<00:08:24.193> mean,<00:08:24.754> everything<00:08:25.075> that<00:08:25.235> I'm<00:08:25.347> saying,<00:08:25.796> if<00:08:25.892> you<00:08:26.053> take,<00:08:27.159> you<00:08:27.255> know,<00:08:27.816> I<00:08:27.896> don't<00:08:28.056> know,<00:08:29.098> NBC<00:08:29.739> or<00:08:29.900> Paramount<00:08:30.557> or<00:08:30.621> somebody,<00:08:30.942> they<00:08:31.102> feel<00:08:31.342> exactly<00:08:31.904> the<00:08:32.000> same<00:08:32.368> way<00:08:32.705> in,<00:08:32.945> in,<00:08:33.170> in<00:08:33.426> a<00:08:33.571> slightly<00:08:34.132> from<00:08:34.308> a<00:08:34.388> different<00:08:34.709> lens,<00:08:35.174> but<00:08:35.286> it's<00:08:35.494> still<00:08:35.751> the<00:08:35.831> same<00:08:36.152> thing.

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It's<00:08:36.568> like,<00:08:36.873> what<00:08:37.097> happened?

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You<00:08:37.690> know,<00:08:37.979> we've,<00:08:38.957> we've<00:08:39.422> lost<00:08:40.079> the,<00:08:40.480> the,<00:08:40.784> the,<00:08:41.137> the<00:08:41.265> attention,<00:08:42.067> uh,<00:08:42.564> game.

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And<00:08:43.044> I,<00:08:43.365> I<00:08:43.381> don't<00:08:43.606> think<00:08:43.766> you're<00:08:43.910> talking<00:08:44.231> 20<00:08:44.551> years<00:08:44.728> from<00:08:44.888> now.

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I<00:08:45.209> think<00:08:45.369> you're<00:08:45.449> talking<00:08:45.930> 2,<00:08:46.170> 3<00:08:46.395> years<00:08:46.603> from<00:08:46.683> now.

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Now.

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I,<00:08:47.356> I<00:08:47.453> really<00:08:47.693> do<00:08:47.933> think<00:08:48.174> there's<00:08:48.430> sort<00:08:48.654> of<00:08:48.799> a,<00:08:49.295> a<00:08:49.375> reckoning,<00:08:50.561> um,<00:08:50.898> but<00:08:51.042> I<00:08:51.122> think<00:08:51.234> it's<00:08:51.378> going<00:08:51.475> to<00:08:51.539> be<00:08:51.619> more<00:08:51.779> of<00:08:51.875> a<00:08:51.939> consumer<00:08:52.420> reckoning<00:08:52.821> because<00:08:52.981> I<00:08:53.061> think<00:08:53.285> people<00:08:53.526> are<00:08:53.622> frustrated<00:08:54.183> with—<00:08:54.583> like,<00:08:54.727> consumers<00:08:55.240> are<00:08:55.320> frustrated<00:08:55.769> with<00:08:55.865> the<00:08:55.945> platforms.

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And,<00:08:58.092> you<00:08:58.124> know,<00:08:59.054> but<00:08:59.150> the<00:08:59.230> hard<00:08:59.454> part<00:08:59.695> is<00:08:59.951> just<00:09:00.336> they,<00:09:00.672> they<00:09:01.073> have<00:09:01.297> so<00:09:01.570> much<00:09:01.874> power,<00:09:02.355> right?

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There's<00:09:03.060> really<00:09:03.316> not,<00:09:03.781> uh,<00:09:04.502> you<00:09:04.534> know,<00:09:05.223> it's<00:09:05.624> going<00:09:05.704> to<00:09:05.800> take<00:09:06.104> a,<00:09:06.601> a<00:09:06.681> real<00:09:06.906> sea<00:09:07.226> change.

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Um,<00:09:08.284> and,<00:09:08.444> and<00:09:08.604> look,<00:09:08.764> you<00:09:09.101> know,<00:09:09.165> I<00:09:09.197> don't<00:09:09.405> want<00:09:09.550> to<00:09:09.582> sit<00:09:09.726> and<00:09:09.806> talk<00:09:09.982> about<00:09:10.190> AI<00:09:10.447> because<00:09:10.639> it's<00:09:10.783> not<00:09:10.944> an<00:09:11.072> expertise<00:09:11.585> of<00:09:11.713> mine.

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I<00:09:11.969> mean,<00:09:12.113> we<00:09:12.274> use<00:09:12.594> AI,<00:09:12.850> but<00:09:12.947> I'm<00:09:13.075> not<00:09:13.251> like<00:09:13.572> one<00:09:13.732> of<00:09:13.812> these<00:09:13.972> gurus<00:09:14.373> about<00:09:14.614> it,<00:09:14.694> but<00:09:15.239> even<00:09:15.352> just<00:09:15.560> the<00:09:15.720> AI<00:09:15.993> stuff<00:09:16.362> this<00:09:16.538> week,<00:09:16.859> right,<00:09:17.340> that<00:09:17.565> we've<00:09:17.725> seen<00:09:17.982> just,<00:09:18.623> yeah,<00:09:19.104> you<00:09:19.200> know,<00:09:19.505> rocketing<00:09:19.986> the<00:09:20.082> NASDAQ<00:09:20.772> and,<00:09:21.012> and,<00:09:21.269> and,<00:09:21.510> and<00:09:21.894> whatever.

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Like,<00:09:23.434> this<00:09:23.674> is<00:09:23.995> a<00:09:24.075> time<00:09:24.396> of<00:09:24.556> crazy<00:09:25.118> disruption,<00:09:26.080> and<00:09:26.385> disruption<00:09:27.026> is,<00:09:27.603> you<00:09:27.764> know,<00:09:28.068> cuts<00:09:28.389> every—<00:09:29.047> cuts,<00:09:29.528> cuts<00:09:29.832> every<00:09:30.009> way,<00:09:30.169> but<00:09:30.314> it<00:09:30.394> cuts,<00:09:31.131> right?

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So<00:09:33.136> yeah,<00:09:33.232> the<00:09:33.376> DeepSeq<00:09:33.858> stuff<00:09:34.194> is,<00:09:34.499> is<00:09:34.659> fascinating<00:09:35.381> and,<00:09:35.862> you<00:09:35.942> know,<00:09:36.183> completely<00:09:36.664> changes<00:09:37.065> the<00:09:37.129> entire<00:09:37.626> paradigm<00:09:38.252> of<00:09:38.332> how<00:09:38.508> we<00:09:38.668> were<00:09:38.829> once<00:09:39.214> thinking<00:09:39.615> of<00:09:40.576> AI.

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And<00:09:41.137> it's<00:09:41.249> interesting,<00:09:41.634> it<00:09:41.714> comes<00:09:41.954> on<00:09:42.035> the<00:09:42.115> heels<00:09:42.355> of<00:09:42.435> like<00:09:42.595> this<00:09:42.820> huge<00:09:43.012> announcement<00:09:43.557> of<00:09:43.637> like<00:09:43.813> $500<00:09:44.358> billion<00:09:46.025> in<00:09:46.121> data<00:09:46.441> centers<00:09:46.842> and<00:09:46.906> stuff.

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You<00:09:47.547> can't<00:09:48.204> keep<00:09:48.444> up<00:09:48.589> with<00:09:48.669> the<00:09:48.749> news<00:09:49.005> that's<00:09:49.149> happening<00:09:49.502> so<00:09:49.710> fast.

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It's<00:09:50.287> crazy.

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Um,<00:09:51.890> I<00:09:51.954> want<00:09:52.034> to<00:09:52.130> touch<00:09:52.354> on<00:09:52.434> something<00:09:52.691> real<00:09:52.835> quick<00:09:53.107> that<00:09:53.236> you<00:09:53.316> mentioned<00:09:53.572> before,<00:09:53.973> which<00:09:54.149> is<00:09:54.293> this<00:09:54.518> whole<00:09:55.014> influencers<00:09:55.896> and<00:09:56.040> their<00:09:56.360> role,<00:09:57.402> an<00:09:57.562> outsized<00:09:58.123> role,<00:09:58.379> and<00:09:58.444> how<00:09:58.540> like<00:09:59.261> they're<00:09:59.661> more<00:09:59.902> popular<00:10:00.463> than<00:10:00.623> standard<00:10:01.168> media.

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Like<00:10:01.681> for<00:10:01.889> example,<00:10:02.546> Joe<00:10:02.850> Rogan,<00:10:04.292> top<00:10:04.533> podcast<00:10:04.949> in<00:10:05.014> the<00:10:05.110> world<00:10:05.510> probably,<00:10:06.873> like<00:10:07.034> he's<00:10:07.338> bigger<00:10:07.579> than<00:10:07.772> CNN,<00:10:08.702> MSNBC,<00:10:09.665> Fox<00:10:10.162> combined.

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Like<00:10:11.462> it's<00:10:11.687> crazy.

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Do<00:10:13.179> you<00:10:13.227> see<00:10:13.532> that<00:10:13.853> as<00:10:14.013> like<00:10:14.575> where<00:10:14.976> the<00:10:15.056> future<00:10:15.522> of<00:10:15.618> media<00:10:15.939> is<00:10:16.099> going?

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And,<00:10:17.624> or<00:10:17.768> like,<00:10:17.928> what<00:10:18.089> were<00:10:18.169> you,<00:10:18.410> what<00:10:18.570> were<00:10:18.650> you<00:10:18.763> meaning<00:10:19.068> when<00:10:19.164> you<00:10:19.244> said<00:10:19.549> influencers?

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Yeah,<00:10:21.234> that,<00:10:21.539> you<00:10:22.180> know,<00:10:22.453> from<00:10:22.742> Joe<00:10:22.919> Rogan<00:10:23.544> on<00:10:23.721> down<00:10:24.106> to<00:10:24.266> just<00:10:24.523> some<00:10:24.764> TikToker,<00:10:25.406> right?

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Uh,<00:10:26.192> that,<00:10:26.769> that<00:10:26.946> is,<00:10:27.315> that<00:10:27.475> is<00:10:27.957> considered<00:10:28.454> the<00:10:28.679> creator<00:10:29.032> economy<00:10:29.577> influencers.

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I<00:10:31.102> think<00:10:31.487> there's<00:10:31.679> a<00:10:31.840> difference<00:10:32.305> between<00:10:32.770> a,<00:10:33.091> a<00:10:33.348> podcaster.

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With<00:10:34.888> a<00:10:34.953> more<00:10:35.193> long-form<00:10:35.755> product<00:10:36.542> and<00:10:36.799> people<00:10:37.023> making<00:10:37.441> the<00:10:37.585> real<00:10:37.746> short-form,<00:10:38.725> uh,<00:10:38.949> quick-hitting<00:10:39.591> content.

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But<00:10:40.105> at<00:10:40.234> the<00:10:40.330> end<00:10:40.426> of<00:10:40.490> the<00:10:40.571> day,<00:10:41.758> uh,<00:10:42.240> look,<00:10:42.738> I,<00:10:42.962> I<00:10:43.364> think<00:10:43.765> the<00:10:43.861> tide<00:10:44.118> has<00:10:44.327> already<00:10:44.904> shifted<00:10:45.530> heavily<00:10:46.189> towards<00:10:46.574> that<00:10:46.975> because,<00:10:47.633> uh,<00:10:47.874> people<00:10:48.163> especially<00:10:48.757> under<00:10:48.981> 40<00:10:49.399> are<00:10:49.479> mostly<00:10:49.961> consuming<00:10:50.442> that<00:10:50.683> content.

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They<00:10:51.325> really<00:10:51.502> don't<00:10:51.726> care<00:10:52.047> that<00:10:52.208> much<00:10:52.513> about<00:10:53.235> legacy<00:10:53.636> media,<00:10:54.134> so<00:10:54.359> to<00:10:54.391> speak.

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Uh,<00:10:55.964> I<00:10:55.996> don't<00:10:56.205> think<00:10:56.317> it's<00:10:56.542> positive<00:10:57.103> necessarily.

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Like,<00:10:58.050> literally,<00:10:58.564> I'll<00:10:58.885> tell<00:10:59.030> you<00:10:59.110> that<00:10:59.335> the<00:10:59.511> reason<00:10:59.848> I<00:10:59.928> started<00:11:00.378> Ranker,<00:11:01.036> and<00:11:01.196> that<00:11:01.341> this<00:11:01.534> is<00:11:01.758> long<00:11:02.079> before<00:11:03.122> influencers,<00:11:04.004> but<00:11:04.165> you,<00:11:04.405> you<00:11:04.501> know,<00:11:04.726> there<00:11:04.806> were<00:11:04.966> lists<00:11:05.351> all<00:11:05.447> over<00:11:05.672> the<00:11:05.768> web,<00:11:06.009> but<00:11:06.153> it<00:11:06.233> was<00:11:06.393> always<00:11:06.650> like<00:11:07.275> one<00:11:07.612> blogger's<00:11:08.189> opinion<00:11:08.670> of<00:11:08.815> the<00:11:08.895> top<00:11:09.200> 20<00:11:09.536> blah<00:11:09.921> blah.

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And<00:11:11.124> you<00:11:11.156> know,<00:11:11.525> who's<00:11:11.765> this<00:11:11.942> guy?

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This<00:11:12.519> is<00:11:12.583> just<00:11:12.807> somebody<00:11:13.080> making,<00:11:13.786> you<00:11:13.866> know,<00:11:14.106> trying<00:11:14.267> to<00:11:14.331> make<00:11:14.491> $50<00:11:15.293> on<00:11:15.710> traffic<00:11:16.207> to<00:11:16.335> his<00:11:16.496> blog<00:11:16.832> post,<00:11:17.313> right?

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Like<00:11:18.099> there's<00:11:18.275> no<00:11:18.436> authority<00:11:18.917> there,<00:11:19.157> but<00:11:19.302> Google<00:11:19.943> was<00:11:20.103> ranking<00:11:20.440> it<00:11:20.584> high<00:11:20.841> and<00:11:20.985> that's<00:11:21.226> what<00:11:21.402> people<00:11:21.579> are<00:11:21.659> seeing.

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So<00:11:22.108> I<00:11:22.220> said,<00:11:22.509> I'm<00:11:22.557> going<00:11:22.669> to<00:11:22.845> fix<00:11:23.150> that<00:11:23.888> with<00:11:24.289> crowdsourced<00:11:25.074> rankings<00:11:25.555> and<00:11:25.652> deliver<00:11:26.117> the<00:11:26.213> definitive<00:11:27.399> answer<00:11:27.816> to<00:11:28.121> whatever<00:11:28.618> is<00:11:28.843> asked<00:11:29.035> in<00:11:29.163> a<00:11:29.179> list<00:11:29.484> format.

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And<00:11:30.061> we<00:11:30.190> We've<00:11:30.303> done<00:11:30.531> that,<00:11:30.938> you<00:11:30.971> know,<00:11:31.346> but<00:11:33.462> to<00:11:33.625> me,<00:11:33.886> that's<00:11:34.146> a<00:11:34.374> better<00:11:34.700> quality<00:11:35.351> piece<00:11:35.660> of<00:11:35.758> information.

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But<00:11:38.027> does,<00:11:39.320> you<00:11:39.417> know,<00:11:39.708> does<00:11:39.951> a<00:11:40.436> 22-year-old<00:11:41.519> scrolling<00:11:42.133> on<00:11:42.214> their<00:11:42.392> TikTok<00:11:43.588> think<00:11:43.831> that<00:11:43.992> way?

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I<00:11:44.267> don't<00:11:44.655> know.

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It's<00:11:45.787> a<00:11:45.868> lot<00:11:46.094> of<00:11:46.191> change.

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And<00:11:47.064> I<00:11:47.242> do<00:11:47.387> not<00:11:48.194> think<00:11:48.532> the<00:11:49.565> creator<00:11:50.081> economy<00:11:50.791> trend—<00:11:51.597> I<00:11:51.758> love<00:11:51.984> the<00:11:52.081> fact<00:11:52.323> that<00:11:52.468> it<00:11:52.549> democratizes<00:11:54.098> things<00:11:54.743> and<00:11:54.888> the<00:11:54.985> gatekeepers<00:11:55.711> aren't<00:11:56.017> there<00:11:56.195> saying,<00:11:56.743> this<00:11:56.920> is<00:11:57.050> what<00:11:57.182> makes<00:11:57.502> sense.

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But<00:11:58.469> it's<00:11:58.677> also<00:11:59.334> like,<00:11:59.944> well,<00:12:01.563> look,<00:12:02.284> I<00:12:02.380> started<00:12:02.717> my<00:12:03.326> career<00:12:03.503> in<00:12:03.583> the<00:12:03.984> record<00:12:04.304> industry,<00:12:04.689> right?

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And<00:12:04.930> that's<00:12:05.106> another<00:12:05.507> place<00:12:05.811> that's<00:12:05.972> been<00:12:06.084> totally<00:12:06.405> disrupted.

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And<00:12:07.511> there<00:12:07.912> was<00:12:08.136> a<00:12:08.168> value<00:12:08.857> in<00:12:09.034> gatekeepers<00:12:09.739> kind<00:12:09.916> of<00:12:10.076> knowing<00:12:10.397> like,<00:12:11.118> this<00:12:11.375> is<00:12:11.503> the<00:12:11.583> music<00:12:11.920> that's<00:12:12.224> really<00:12:12.561> good.

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And<00:12:13.443> now<00:12:13.763> with<00:12:14.004> everybody<00:12:14.405> on<00:12:14.501> Spotify<00:12:15.062> making<00:12:15.431> something,<00:12:15.703> it's<00:12:15.848> a<00:12:15.864> little<00:12:16.393> bit<00:12:16.473> harder<00:12:17.451> to<00:12:18.156> really,<00:12:18.814> you<00:12:18.910> know,<00:12:19.695> make<00:12:20.737> popular<00:12:21.218> music<00:12:22.020> that<00:12:22.565> crosses<00:12:23.046> over<00:12:23.222> and<00:12:23.319> isn't<00:12:23.527> just<00:12:23.687> lowest<00:12:23.944> common<00:12:24.216> denominator.

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And<00:12:24.826> the<00:12:24.906> same<00:12:25.210> thing<00:12:25.563> is<00:12:25.691> happening,<00:12:26.092> I<00:12:26.252> think,<00:12:26.429> on<00:12:26.493> the<00:12:26.589> creator<00:12:26.846> economy<00:12:27.391> in<00:12:27.471> a<00:12:28.112> sort<00:12:28.272> of<00:12:28.369> different<00:12:30.260> consumption<00:12:30.741> way.

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Yeah,<00:12:31.799> I<00:12:31.943> agree<00:12:32.248> with<00:12:32.360> that.

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And<00:12:32.745> then,<00:12:32.921> you<00:12:33.001> know,<00:12:33.242> if<00:12:33.466> the,<00:12:33.947> you<00:12:33.979> know,<00:12:34.107> like<00:12:34.348> we're<00:12:34.444> seeing<00:12:35.069> again,<00:12:35.390> like<00:12:35.807> recent<00:12:36.207> news<00:12:36.544> is<00:12:36.672> like<00:12:36.849> TikTok<00:12:37.329> may<00:12:37.426> or<00:12:37.586> may<00:12:37.746> not<00:12:37.987> exist<00:12:38.532> and<00:12:39.237> like<00:12:39.413> all<00:12:39.558> these<00:12:39.670> types<00:12:39.894> of<00:12:40.039> like<00:12:40.215> if<00:12:40.295> so,<00:12:40.375> if<00:12:40.519> you<00:12:40.696> built,<00:12:41.081> you<00:12:41.113> know,<00:12:41.209> millions<00:12:41.594> and<00:12:41.674> millions<00:12:42.042> of<00:12:42.123> followers<00:12:42.684> there<00:12:43.181> and<00:12:43.341> all<00:12:43.421> of<00:12:43.485> a<00:12:43.517> sudden<00:12:44.623> the<00:12:44.703> fact<00:12:45.008> that<00:12:45.104> these<00:12:45.264> platforms<00:12:45.745> can<00:12:45.825> be<00:12:45.970> turned<00:12:46.210> off<00:12:46.851> and,<00:12:47.653> you<00:12:47.749> know,<00:12:48.150> their<00:12:48.374> algorithms<00:12:48.791> can<00:12:48.903> be<00:12:49.032> changed<00:12:49.496> is<00:12:49.753> pretty<00:12:50.073> wild.

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Yeah,<00:12:51.676> I<00:12:51.693> don't<00:12:51.981> think<00:12:52.157> that,<00:12:52.398> that,<00:12:52.718> that,<00:12:52.959> you<00:12:53.119> know,<00:12:54.161> government<00:12:54.706> thinking<00:12:55.363> and<00:12:55.524> legisla—<00:12:56.229> I<00:12:56.245> just<00:12:56.405> don't<00:12:56.630> think<00:12:56.950> anybody<00:12:57.367> gets—<00:12:57.672> has<00:12:57.848> a<00:12:57.928> clue<00:12:58.553> how<00:12:58.730> to<00:12:58.810> deal<00:12:59.034> with<00:12:59.195> algorithms.

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Yet<00:12:59.996> they<00:13:00.156> control<00:13:00.653> our<00:13:00.813> lives,<00:13:01.438> right?

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They<00:13:01.855> dictate<00:13:02.640> what<00:13:02.816> we<00:13:02.977> see<00:13:03.682> and<00:13:04.018> in<00:13:04.178> some<00:13:04.419> cases<00:13:04.884> choose<00:13:05.140> to<00:13:05.364> do.

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And<00:13:06.726> nobody<00:13:07.127> would<00:13:07.223> have<00:13:07.319> envisioned<00:13:07.784> that<00:13:08.024> or<00:13:08.104> has<00:13:08.441> any<00:13:08.745> idea<00:13:09.210> how<00:13:09.306> to<00:13:09.451> handle<00:13:09.707> it<00:13:09.867> really,<00:13:10.604> you<00:13:10.749> know,<00:13:11.213> from<00:13:11.390> a<00:13:11.806> societal<00:13:12.351> perspective.

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So<00:13:13.617> look,<00:13:13.809> it's<00:13:13.953> a<00:13:14.018> fascinating<00:13:14.675> time<00:13:14.915> to<00:13:15.075> be<00:13:15.235> in<00:13:15.316> the<00:13:15.396> middle<00:13:15.620> of<00:13:15.700> all<00:13:15.876> this.

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And<00:13:16.581> I,<00:13:17.783> you<00:13:17.815> know,<00:13:17.863> I<00:13:18.104> learn<00:13:18.344> something<00:13:18.697> every<00:13:18.921> day,<00:13:19.883> but<00:13:20.043> it<00:13:20.187> isn't<00:13:20.668> always<00:13:21.165> the<00:13:21.309> funnest<00:13:21.789> time<00:13:22.046> to<00:13:22.270> actually<00:13:22.527> try<00:13:22.687> to<00:13:22.831> grow<00:13:23.248> a<00:13:23.328> business<00:13:23.889> in<00:13:23.969> a<00:13:24.129> normal<00:13:24.610> way<00:13:24.994> because<00:13:26.053> the<00:13:26.198> rug<00:13:26.374> gets<00:13:26.615> pulled<00:13:26.840> out<00:13:26.921> from<00:13:27.081> you<00:13:27.242> very<00:13:27.403> quickly.

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Have<00:13:28.849> you<00:13:28.945> ever<00:13:29.331> like<00:13:29.572> ranked<00:13:29.829> CEOs<00:13:31.114> or<00:13:31.195> gone<00:13:31.420> into<00:13:31.596> the<00:13:31.677> business<00:13:32.143> world<00:13:32.705> on<00:13:32.801> like<00:13:32.962> ranking?

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That'd<00:13:33.524> be<00:13:33.605> interesting.

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Yeah,<00:13:35.292> the<00:13:35.452> problem<00:13:35.774> that<00:13:35.870> we've<00:13:36.015> had<00:13:36.176> with<00:13:36.336> Ranker<00:13:37.059> and<00:13:37.204> that<00:13:37.445> kind<00:13:37.782> of<00:13:37.863> thing<00:13:38.264> is<00:13:38.425> two.

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One<00:13:39.212> is<00:13:39.469> I<00:13:39.550> never<00:13:39.775> had<00:13:39.887> enough.

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I<00:13:40.353> never<00:13:40.578> raised<00:13:40.835> like<00:13:40.996> the—<00:13:41.462> I<00:13:41.542> raised<00:13:41.783> venture<00:13:42.024> capital<00:13:42.345> money,<00:13:42.522> but<00:13:42.602> it<00:13:42.667> was<00:13:42.779> always<00:13:42.924> like<00:13:43.068> seed<00:13:43.470> level<00:13:43.727> money.

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Never<00:13:44.274> had<00:13:44.434> more<00:13:44.547> than<00:13:44.691> $2<00:13:44.852> million<00:13:45.254> to<00:13:45.414> play<00:13:45.559> with<00:13:45.671> at<00:13:45.752> a<00:13:45.816> time.

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So<00:13:46.684> you're<00:13:46.844> hiring,<00:13:47.728> you'd<00:13:47.808> have<00:13:48.290> to<00:13:48.451> rank<00:13:48.644> CEOs.

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Like<00:13:49.913> we<00:13:49.994> used<00:13:50.154> to<00:13:50.235> have<00:13:50.395> venture<00:13:50.636> capitalists<00:13:51.263> always<00:13:51.456> saying<00:13:51.681> like,<00:13:52.306> Why<00:13:52.867> isn't<00:13:53.044> there<00:13:53.204> a<00:13:53.284> ranking<00:13:53.685> of<00:13:53.765> VCs?

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And<00:13:54.422> I'm<00:13:54.551> like,<00:13:54.727> because<00:13:55.128> I<00:13:55.208> don't<00:13:55.368> have<00:13:56.715> the<00:13:57.757> young<00:13:57.997> people<00:13:58.206> making<00:13:58.478> content<00:13:58.975> for<00:13:59.087> me<00:13:59.296> don't<00:13:59.536> know<00:13:59.857> what<00:14:00.178> VCs<00:14:00.963> are,<00:14:01.284> even<00:14:01.781> let<00:14:01.941> alone<00:14:02.246> what<00:14:02.406> VCs<00:14:02.807> are<00:14:02.967> good<00:14:03.207> or<00:14:03.304> whatever.

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And<00:14:04.265> so<00:14:04.650> I<00:14:04.746> could<00:14:05.692> hire<00:14:05.965> somebody<00:14:06.510> and<00:14:06.654> do<00:14:06.830> that<00:14:07.071> just<00:14:07.632> to<00:14:07.936> raise<00:14:08.257> my<00:14:08.369> next<00:14:08.738> round<00:14:09.075> from<00:14:09.235> you<00:14:09.395> people<00:14:09.716> because<00:14:10.021> you're<00:14:10.101> so<00:14:10.277> myopic.

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But<00:14:11.559> that's<00:14:11.864> not<00:14:12.105> what<00:14:12.345> I<00:14:12.377> set<00:14:12.666> out<00:14:12.778> to<00:14:12.922> build,<00:14:13.387> right?

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So<00:14:14.445> we've<00:14:14.750> actually,<00:14:15.792> we<00:14:15.888> found<00:14:16.208> that<00:14:16.353> when<00:14:16.513> you<00:14:16.593> try<00:14:16.786> to<00:14:16.930> do<00:14:17.106> something<00:14:17.491> that's<00:14:18.792> that's,<00:14:19.420> I<00:14:19.501> guess,<00:14:21.434> very<00:14:21.757> highly<00:14:22.031> susceptible<00:14:22.885> to<00:14:23.207> gaming,<00:14:23.610> you<00:14:23.771> also<00:14:24.109> find<00:14:24.835> that<00:14:24.996> the<00:14:25.076> bad<00:14:25.382> actors<00:14:25.721> come<00:14:25.898> in<00:14:26.043> right<00:14:26.220> away.

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Like<00:14:26.607> if<00:14:26.704> we<00:14:26.833> were<00:14:26.929> ranking<00:14:27.220> CEOs,<00:14:27.718> you<00:14:27.814> know,<00:14:27.975> those<00:14:28.135> CEOs<00:14:28.537> would<00:14:28.617> get<00:14:29.405> their<00:14:29.565> publicists<00:14:30.545> to<00:14:30.626> try<00:14:30.786> to<00:14:30.931> come<00:14:31.172> in<00:14:31.284> and<00:14:31.686> send<00:14:32.554> everybody<00:14:32.875> to<00:14:32.971> vote<00:14:33.261> on,<00:14:33.437> you<00:14:33.518> know,<00:14:34.321> would<00:14:34.417> it<00:14:34.482> be,<00:14:34.787> would<00:14:35.044> the<00:14:35.349> answer<00:14:35.687> be<00:14:35.928> good<00:14:36.233> at<00:14:36.329> the<00:14:36.490> end<00:14:36.635> of<00:14:36.667> the<00:14:36.924> day?

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I<00:14:37.215> don't<00:14:37.458> know.

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I<00:14:38.023> doubt<00:14:38.282> it.

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That's<00:14:39.300> a<00:14:39.316> good<00:14:39.478> point.

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That's<00:14:40.448> a<00:14:40.528> good<00:14:40.690> point.

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Yeah,<00:14:41.336> the<00:14:41.417> business<00:14:41.805> world<00:14:41.983> is<00:14:42.145> very<00:14:42.468> gamed.

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People<00:14:43.737> probably<00:14:43.994> don't<00:14:44.154> know<00:14:44.331> that.

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I<00:14:46.306> also<00:14:46.563> wonder,<00:14:46.884> you<00:14:46.932> were<00:14:47.045> talking<00:14:47.302> about<00:14:47.462> AI<00:14:47.768> a<00:14:47.784> little<00:14:48.008> bit,<00:14:48.538> how<00:14:49.213> has<00:14:49.518> it<00:14:49.614> changed<00:14:49.952> your<00:14:50.096> workflow<00:14:50.899> at<00:14:51.044> Ranker?

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How<00:14:51.445> has<00:14:51.606> it<00:14:51.702> changed<00:14:52.344> everything<00:14:53.388> and<00:14:53.533> what<00:14:53.709> you<00:14:53.854> do?

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Has<00:14:54.111> it<00:14:54.191> made<00:14:54.416> it<00:14:54.512> easier,<00:14:55.074> faster?

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I<00:14:56.680> will<00:14:56.793> say<00:14:57.001> this,<00:14:57.708> you<00:14:57.804> know,<00:14:57.981> so<00:14:58.125> Ranker<00:14:58.848> is,<00:15:00.374> we're<00:15:00.759> a<00:15:00.775> lot<00:15:01.739> more<00:15:01.835> sort<00:15:01.996> of<00:15:02.220> more<00:15:02.397> robust<00:15:02.847> than<00:15:02.943> like<00:15:03.104> a<00:15:03.184> WordPress<00:15:03.907> kind<00:15:04.228> of<00:15:04.950> publisher.

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We<00:15:05.753> actually<00:15:06.059> have<00:15:06.492> ingested<00:15:07.745> 30<00:15:08.066> million<00:15:08.467> entities<00:15:08.885> in<00:15:08.965> our<00:15:09.062> system<00:15:09.848> to<00:15:10.073> rank<00:15:10.427> so<00:15:10.651> that<00:15:10.812> they<00:15:10.956> can<00:15:11.053> be<00:15:11.197> on<00:15:11.615> any<00:15:11.920> list<00:15:12.257> very<00:15:12.562> quickly.

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And<00:15:13.558> so<00:15:14.986> an<00:15:15.130> entity<00:15:15.467> kind<00:15:15.628> of<00:15:15.660> needs<00:15:15.932> a<00:15:15.948> little<00:15:16.109> synopsis,<00:15:16.815> right?

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An<00:15:17.216> entity<00:15:17.553> could<00:15:17.697> be<00:15:17.793> a<00:15:17.874> TV<00:15:18.178> show,<00:15:18.531> a<00:15:18.596> TV<00:15:18.981> episode.

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It<00:15:19.703> could<00:15:19.879> be<00:15:20.425> a<00:15:20.537> celebrity.

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It<00:15:21.387> could<00:15:21.548> be<00:15:21.644> a<00:15:22.125> baseball<00:15:22.462> player.

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And<00:15:23.329> you<00:15:23.409> need<00:15:23.473> a<00:15:23.569> little<00:15:23.810> blurb<00:15:24.051> about<00:15:24.291> that<00:15:24.468> entity.

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So<00:15:26.281> AI<00:15:26.682> is<00:15:26.842> really<00:15:27.019> helpful<00:15:27.580> for<00:15:27.741> things<00:15:27.981> like<00:15:28.206> that<00:15:28.543> because<00:15:28.928> writing<00:15:29.650> blurbs<00:15:30.163> about<00:15:30.789> these<00:15:31.110> things,<00:15:31.431> it's<00:15:31.912> costly<00:15:32.474> at<00:15:32.570> scale.

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And<00:15:33.661> AI<00:15:34.062> really<00:15:34.399> does<00:15:34.704> help<00:15:34.960> us<00:15:35.185> on<00:15:35.281> those<00:15:35.586> fronts<00:15:36.083> as<00:15:36.244> long<00:15:36.485> as<00:15:36.629> you<00:15:36.661> still<00:15:36.950> have<00:15:37.126> an<00:15:37.287> editor<00:15:37.752> who,<00:15:38.570> you<00:15:38.634> know,<00:15:39.212> can<00:15:39.356> kind<00:15:39.597> of,<00:15:40.639> let's<00:15:41.360> put<00:15:41.456> this<00:15:41.617> way,<00:15:41.841> writing<00:15:42.098> a<00:15:42.114> little<00:15:42.242> synopsis<00:15:42.883> could<00:15:42.980> take<00:15:43.140> an<00:15:43.220> editor<00:15:43.461> 15<00:15:43.845> minutes.

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With<00:15:44.503> the<00:15:44.583> assistive<00:15:45.048> AI,<00:15:45.400> it<00:15:45.449> could<00:15:45.545> take<00:15:45.705> that<00:15:45.865> person<00:15:47.068> maybe,<00:15:48.270> you<00:15:48.366> know,<00:15:48.976> 2<00:15:49.072> minutes,<00:15:49.713> but<00:15:49.857> it<00:15:49.938> still<00:15:50.338> isn't<00:15:51.076> good<00:15:51.461> to<00:15:51.621> just<00:15:51.781> let<00:15:51.942> the<00:15:52.102> AI<00:15:52.359> do<00:15:52.519> it<00:15:52.663> all.

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We<00:15:52.984> have<00:15:53.080> not<00:15:53.304> found<00:15:54.122> that<00:15:54.266> the<00:15:54.443> AI<00:15:55.068> is<00:15:56.030> high<00:15:56.351> quality<00:15:56.767> enough,<00:15:57.489> even<00:15:57.713> with<00:15:57.890> the,<00:15:58.275> you<00:15:58.355> know,<00:15:58.595> really<00:15:58.852> good<00:15:59.092> prompt<00:15:59.493> training<00:16:00.455> to<00:16:01.321> just<00:16:01.818> replace<00:16:02.154> everything.

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So<00:16:03.341> human-assisted<00:16:04.046> AI,<00:16:04.399> I'm<00:16:04.559> a<00:16:04.704> big<00:16:04.848> believer<00:16:05.169> in<00:16:05.329> right<00:16:05.425> now.

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And<00:16:05.826> I<00:16:06.082> do<00:16:06.227> think<00:16:06.547> that<00:16:07.028> the<00:16:07.173> technology<00:16:07.734> will<00:16:07.894> get<00:16:08.070> better.

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I<00:16:09.774> don't<00:16:10.276> think<00:16:10.535> it's—<00:16:10.762> I'm<00:16:11.328> not<00:16:11.555> one<00:16:11.668> of<00:16:11.798> those<00:16:12.122> AI<00:16:12.462> true<00:16:12.705> believers<00:16:13.174> who<00:16:13.271> thinks<00:16:13.579> it<00:16:13.676> can<00:16:13.838> replace<00:16:14.324> everything,<00:16:15.781> but<00:16:15.942> I<00:16:16.088> think<00:16:16.655> it<00:16:16.914> can<00:16:17.561> really<00:16:18.209> be<00:16:18.355> a<00:16:18.420> productivity<00:16:19.019> gain<00:16:19.408> of,<00:16:19.813> I<00:16:19.910> would<00:16:20.072> say,<00:16:20.315> the<00:16:20.882> sort<00:16:21.060> of<00:16:21.351> repetitive<00:16:23.619> kind<00:16:23.943> of<00:16:25.320> less<00:16:25.579> nuanced<00:16:26.227> tasks.

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What<00:16:28.099> does<00:16:28.182> a<00:16:28.199> typical<00:16:28.682> day<00:16:28.848> look<00:16:29.031> like<00:16:29.264> for<00:16:29.347> you?

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I'm<00:16:33.195> a<00:16:33.276> dashboard<00:16:33.761> guy,<00:16:34.472> right?

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So<00:16:35.200> I'm<00:16:35.523> not<00:16:35.717> like<00:16:35.863> a<00:16:35.928> trained<00:16:36.251> analyst.

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I<00:16:36.752> have<00:16:36.849> a<00:16:36.979> great<00:16:37.221> analyst<00:16:37.787> who's<00:16:37.949> our<00:16:38.062> COO.

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But<00:16:39.778> I<00:16:40.035> love<00:16:40.340> just<00:16:40.581> like<00:16:40.758> looking<00:16:41.079> at<00:16:41.160> numbers<00:16:41.722> because<00:16:42.188> at<00:16:42.285> the<00:16:42.365> end<00:16:42.526> of<00:16:42.590> the<00:16:42.686> day,<00:16:44.036> you<00:16:44.068> know,<00:16:46.221> I<00:16:46.301> guess<00:16:46.703> for<00:16:47.105> better<00:16:47.266> or<00:16:47.410> for<00:16:47.587> worse,<00:16:47.989> because<00:16:48.471> our<00:16:48.696> industry<00:16:49.196> is<00:16:49.664> so<00:16:50.164> rapidly<00:16:50.649> changing,<00:16:52.101> my<00:16:52.424> day<00:16:52.828> is,<00:16:53.618> you<00:16:53.699> know,<00:16:54.345> I<00:16:54.425> would<00:16:54.538> say<00:16:54.748> an<00:16:54.910> hour<00:16:55.055> or<00:16:55.232> two<00:16:55.410> of<00:16:55.555> every<00:16:55.814> day<00:16:56.136> is<00:16:56.282> sort<00:16:56.459> of<00:16:56.524> spent<00:16:56.782> just<00:16:56.943> like,<00:16:57.331> what's<00:16:57.589> going<00:16:57.912> on?

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Is<00:16:58.734> there<00:16:58.896> something<00:16:59.364> to<00:16:59.589> optimize<00:17:00.573> here<00:17:01.122> with<00:17:01.299> this<00:17:01.461> traffic<00:17:01.945> source?

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Or<00:17:02.816> maybe<00:17:03.154> the<00:17:03.235> sales<00:17:03.622> team<00:17:03.880> is<00:17:04.606> pitching<00:17:05.316> over<00:17:05.510> here<00:17:05.832> and<00:17:05.977> we<00:17:06.074> need<00:17:06.461> to<00:17:06.623> give<00:17:06.784> them<00:17:06.929> some<00:17:07.107> better<00:17:07.332> data<00:17:07.655> to<00:17:07.720> do<00:17:07.840> that<00:17:08.080> pitch<00:17:08.355> with<00:17:08.681> or<00:17:08.784> whatever<00:17:09.008> it<00:17:09.042> may<00:17:09.076> be.

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So<00:17:11.161> it<00:17:11.241> starts<00:17:11.546> with<00:17:11.691> dashboards.

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And<00:17:13.618> I<00:17:14.036> would<00:17:14.196> say<00:17:14.357> rather<00:17:14.598> than<00:17:14.743> a<00:17:14.759> typical<00:17:15.224> day,<00:17:15.546> I<00:17:15.867> kind<00:17:16.108> of<00:17:16.204> think<00:17:16.381> of<00:17:16.461> a<00:17:16.525> typical<00:17:16.927> week.

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I'm,<00:17:19.176> I<00:17:19.320> try<00:17:20.525> to<00:17:20.782> be,<00:17:22.308> I'm<00:17:22.613> kind<00:17:22.854> of<00:17:22.886> like<00:17:23.095> hands-on<00:17:23.818> or<00:17:23.978> hands-off<00:17:24.573> depending<00:17:25.119> on<00:17:25.199> my<00:17:25.424> team<00:17:25.761> and<00:17:25.841> what<00:17:26.018> they're<00:17:26.227> working<00:17:26.629> on.

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So<00:17:26.950> I<00:17:27.110> have<00:17:27.303> to<00:17:27.432> get<00:17:27.544> into<00:17:27.705> the<00:17:27.849> weeds<00:17:28.235> every<00:17:28.395> once<00:17:28.652> in<00:17:28.684> a<00:17:28.701> while<00:17:28.813> on<00:17:29.118> something<00:17:29.600> that's<00:17:29.841> just<00:17:30.901> like,<00:17:31.945> you<00:17:32.041> know,<00:17:32.652> something<00:17:32.973> circles<00:17:33.391> back<00:17:33.648> around<00:17:34.419> that<00:17:34.660> I'm<00:17:34.836> the<00:17:34.981> one<00:17:35.125> who,<00:17:36.426> commissioned<00:17:37.227> to<00:17:37.404> build<00:17:37.724> 6<00:17:38.109> years<00:17:38.301> ago<00:17:38.589> and<00:17:38.669> all<00:17:38.750> of<00:17:38.830> a<00:17:38.862> sudden<00:17:39.102> becomes<00:17:39.487> a<00:17:39.631> thing<00:17:39.791> again.

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And<00:17:40.143> I'm<00:17:40.288> the<00:17:40.368> one<00:17:40.512> who<00:17:40.592> has<00:17:40.688> to<00:17:40.832> go<00:17:41.009> into<00:17:41.233> the<00:17:41.313> weeds<00:17:41.650> and<00:17:41.970> deal<00:17:42.210> with<00:17:42.371> it.

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And<00:17:42.611> then<00:17:42.915> in<00:17:42.996> a<00:17:43.012> lot<00:17:43.252> of<00:17:43.284> other<00:17:43.412> cases,<00:17:44.069> I'm<00:17:44.598> just<00:17:44.774> taking<00:17:45.095> half<00:17:45.335> an<00:17:45.479> hour<00:17:45.591> meetings<00:17:46.040> with<00:17:46.200> my<00:17:46.537> leads<00:17:47.242> and,<00:17:47.562> you<00:17:48.235> know,<00:17:48.684> getting<00:17:48.860> the<00:17:48.940> summary<00:17:49.341> from<00:17:49.565> them.

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So<00:17:50.366> it's<00:17:50.526> really<00:17:50.767> just<00:17:50.959> a<00:17:51.103> weird<00:17:51.407> combination<00:17:52.064> of<00:17:52.209> like,<00:17:52.545> what<00:17:52.705> are<00:17:52.737> the<00:17:52.849> priorities?

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I<00:17:54.452> try<00:17:54.628> to<00:17:54.788> avoid<00:17:55.269> standing<00:17:55.750> meetings,<00:17:56.455> you<00:17:56.487> know,<00:17:56.695> for<00:17:56.839> more<00:17:57.272> than<00:17:57.833> 25%<00:17:58.538> of<00:17:58.634> my<00:17:58.794> week<00:17:59.194> because<00:18:00.380> I<00:18:00.460> like<00:18:00.556> to<00:18:00.701> call<00:18:00.957> meetings<00:18:01.438> on<00:18:01.598> short<00:18:01.918> notice<00:18:02.399> when<00:18:02.559> need<00:18:02.800> be.

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And<00:18:03.264> I<00:18:03.585> also<00:18:04.322> I<00:18:04.627> think<00:18:04.804> that<00:18:05.125> any<00:18:05.350> CEO<00:18:05.703> who's<00:18:06.121> spending,<00:18:07.437> you<00:18:07.517> know,<00:18:07.694> 70%<00:18:08.561> of<00:18:08.690> their<00:18:08.818> time<00:18:09.139> in<00:18:09.219> meetings,<00:18:11.130> you<00:18:11.162> know,<00:18:11.548> at<00:18:11.628> least<00:18:11.789> for<00:18:11.949> companies<00:18:12.832> like,<00:18:13.234> like<00:18:13.410> ours,<00:18:14.502> you<00:18:14.534> know,<00:18:14.647> 100-person-ish<00:18:15.482> companies,<00:18:16.991> I<00:18:17.248> don't<00:18:17.489> know,<00:18:17.810> you<00:18:17.906> know,<00:18:18.211> like<00:18:18.468> to<00:18:18.597> me<00:18:18.853> that,<00:18:19.094> that's,<00:18:20.138> that<00:18:20.234> sounds<00:18:20.539> miserable.

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But<00:18:21.487> yeah,<00:18:21.824> it<00:18:22.049> also<00:18:22.322> sounds<00:18:22.611> like<00:18:22.932> probably<00:18:23.124> something<00:18:23.494> that<00:18:23.670> you<00:18:23.751> shouldn't<00:18:23.992> be<00:18:24.072> doing.

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Yeah.

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Unless<00:18:25.356> you're,<00:18:25.581> unless<00:18:25.918> your<00:18:26.079> business<00:18:26.464> is<00:18:26.496> very<00:18:26.721> straightforward<00:18:27.428> and<00:18:27.524> isn't<00:18:27.701> subject<00:18:28.070> to<00:18:28.102> a<00:18:28.166> lot<00:18:28.327> of<00:18:28.391> change,<00:18:28.809> in<00:18:28.953> which<00:18:29.130> case.

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More<00:18:30.284> power<00:18:30.537> to<00:18:30.773> you,<00:18:30.891> right?

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Yeah.

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Yeah,<00:18:33.911> for<00:18:34.058> sure.

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How<00:18:34.482> do<00:18:34.563> you<00:18:34.710> think<00:18:34.889> about<00:18:35.052> hiring<00:18:35.850> and<00:18:36.029> culture<00:18:36.909> and<00:18:37.089> building<00:18:37.414> that<00:18:37.643> culture?

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Well,<00:18:39.918> hiring,<00:18:41.548> you<00:18:41.629> know,<00:18:42.516> we—<00:18:44.614> again,<00:18:44.921> this<00:18:45.260> might<00:18:45.728> be<00:18:45.824> bleeped<00:18:46.212> out,<00:18:46.389> but<00:18:46.534> I've<00:18:46.696> always<00:18:46.970> kind<00:18:47.196> of<00:18:47.261> had—<00:18:47.438> I'm<00:18:47.583> a<00:18:47.616> Midwesterner.

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And<00:18:48.794> although<00:18:48.971> the<00:18:49.020> company's<00:18:49.374> based<00:18:49.680> in<00:18:49.776> LA,<00:18:50.259> we<00:18:50.420> really<00:18:50.903> have<00:18:51.209> always<00:18:51.934> strove<00:18:52.336> to<00:18:52.433> hire<00:18:52.836> grounded<00:18:53.544> people.

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I<00:18:55.090> just,<00:18:55.798> you<00:18:55.831> know,<00:18:55.911> we've<00:18:56.378> had<00:18:56.845> what<00:18:57.006> I<00:18:57.103> call<00:18:57.264> a<00:18:57.344> no<00:18:57.650> douchebag<00:18:58.149> policy.

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Like<00:18:59.317> we<00:18:59.413> just<00:18:59.733> don't<00:19:00.198> want<00:19:00.840> hypey<00:19:02.539> hustler<00:19:03.180> type<00:19:03.806> people<00:19:04.287> who<00:19:04.607> just,<00:19:04.800> you<00:19:04.944> have<00:19:05.169> to<00:19:05.345> then<00:19:06.692> follow<00:19:07.093> up<00:19:07.333> on<00:19:07.493> all<00:19:07.606> the<00:19:07.750> time<00:19:07.990> and<00:19:08.071> say,<00:19:08.295> why<00:19:08.471> didn't<00:19:08.776> you<00:19:08.872> do<00:19:09.033> what<00:19:09.177> you<00:19:09.209> said<00:19:09.498> you're<00:19:09.594> going<00:19:09.706> to<00:19:09.770> do?

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Right.

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So<00:19:10.636> we<00:19:10.780> really<00:19:11.101> have<00:19:11.277> just<00:19:11.598> kind<00:19:11.822> of<00:19:12.464> found<00:19:13.041> people<00:19:14.323> across<00:19:14.708> the<00:19:14.804> board<00:19:15.285> from<00:19:15.446> the<00:19:15.526> get-go.

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And,<00:19:17.049> you<00:19:17.129> know,<00:19:17.434> this<00:19:17.514> sort<00:19:17.690> of<00:19:17.771> answers<00:19:17.995> your<00:19:18.155> culture<00:19:18.556> question<00:19:18.877> as<00:19:18.973> well.

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Ranker's<00:19:20.512> about<00:19:21.057> kind<00:19:21.298> of,<00:19:21.939> you<00:19:22.356> know,<00:19:22.580> whether<00:19:22.821> it's<00:19:23.126> Ranker<00:19:23.382> or<00:19:23.478> the<00:19:23.607> Watchworthy<00:19:24.023> TV<00:19:24.344> app,<00:19:24.440> it's<00:19:24.537> still<00:19:24.729> kind<00:19:24.905> of<00:19:25.066> nerdy,<00:19:25.466> right?

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It's<00:19:25.931> like,<00:19:26.188> you<00:19:26.252> know,<00:19:26.573> you<00:19:26.669> got<00:19:26.813> the<00:19:26.909> pop<00:19:27.230> culture.

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Aficionados<00:19:28.996> who<00:19:29.397> really<00:19:30.104> are<00:19:30.361> like,<00:19:30.827> I'm<00:19:31.646> making<00:19:31.967> lists,<00:19:32.288> I'm<00:19:32.449> making<00:19:32.754> rankings,<00:19:33.316> you<00:19:33.348> know,<00:19:33.573> I'm<00:19:34.216> like,<00:19:34.601> they<00:19:34.778> love<00:19:35.035> that<00:19:35.179> they're<00:19:35.404> doing<00:19:35.645> that<00:19:35.902> for<00:19:36.047> a<00:19:36.063> job.

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So<00:19:37.589> we<00:19:38.054> really<00:19:38.311> seek<00:19:38.938> out<00:19:39.195> people.

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In<00:19:39.693> some<00:19:39.917> cases<00:19:40.303> we've<00:19:40.464> hired<00:19:41.283> from<00:19:42.005> our<00:19:42.407> community.

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We've<00:19:42.953> hired<00:19:43.130> a<00:19:43.194> bunch<00:19:43.371> of<00:19:43.435> freelance<00:19:43.853> writers<00:19:44.238> who<00:19:44.270> started<00:19:44.640> for<00:19:44.800> us<00:19:44.913> as<00:19:45.057> freelancers<00:19:45.780> and<00:19:45.941> ended<00:19:46.181> up<00:19:46.326> as,<00:19:46.985> you<00:19:47.065> know,<00:19:47.225> full-time<00:19:47.627> content<00:19:48.093> creators.

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And,<00:19:50.904> you<00:19:50.936> know,<00:19:51.305> the<00:19:51.401> commonality<00:19:52.365> is<00:19:52.831> honestly<00:19:53.329> just<00:19:53.634> like<00:19:54.134> grounded<00:19:54.720> people<00:19:55.192> who<00:19:55.274> are<00:19:55.518> really<00:19:55.844> bright,<00:19:57.147> but<00:19:58.613> might<00:19:58.841> be<00:19:58.906> a<00:19:58.923> little<00:19:59.102> nerdy.

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I<00:20:02.216> love<00:20:02.377> it.

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That's<00:20:03.023> incredible.

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What<00:20:03.830> are<00:20:03.975> like<00:20:04.169> some<00:20:04.476> products<00:20:05.137> or<00:20:05.428> apps<00:20:05.831> or<00:20:06.009> something<00:20:06.332> like<00:20:06.558> that,<00:20:06.816> like<00:20:07.042> that<00:20:07.203> you<00:20:07.381> just<00:20:07.623> can't<00:20:07.930> live<00:20:08.091> without<00:20:08.414> that<00:20:08.575> you<00:20:08.817> use<00:20:09.059> every<00:20:09.301> day?

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I'll<00:20:10.632> give<00:20:10.777> you<00:20:10.954> one<00:20:11.277> that<00:20:11.824> I<00:20:11.921> feel<00:20:12.243> like<00:20:12.630> is<00:20:14.095> unsung,<00:20:14.804> although<00:20:15.062> I<00:20:15.142> don't<00:20:15.449> read<00:20:15.867> a<00:20:15.948> lot<00:20:16.206> of<00:20:16.351> like<00:20:16.592> B2B<00:20:17.059> press.

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So<00:20:17.414> maybe<00:20:17.704> you're<00:20:17.865> familiar<00:20:18.203> with<00:20:18.380> it.

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Have<00:20:18.751> you<00:20:18.831> heard<00:20:18.992> of<00:20:19.153> Loom?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Loom's<00:20:21.588> great.

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I<00:20:22.791> think<00:20:23.016> that<00:20:23.208> is<00:20:23.353> just<00:20:23.577> the<00:20:23.658> most,<00:20:24.155> like,<00:20:24.941> once<00:20:25.262> I<00:20:25.278> got<00:20:25.599> Loom,<00:20:26.626> you<00:20:26.658> know,<00:20:26.723> I<00:20:26.867> used<00:20:27.028> to<00:20:27.108> do<00:20:27.268> voice<00:20:27.525> memos<00:20:27.846> all<00:20:27.910> the<00:20:28.006> time,<00:20:28.327> right?

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It's<00:20:28.969> faster<00:20:29.370> to<00:20:29.868> say<00:20:30.109> something<00:20:30.478> than<00:20:30.574> write<00:20:30.815> something.

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So<00:20:31.280> I'd<00:20:31.441> be<00:20:31.762> emailing<00:20:32.099> people<00:20:32.339> voice<00:20:32.580> memos<00:20:32.901> left<00:20:33.158> and<00:20:33.222> right.

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But<00:20:34.008> with<00:20:34.249> Loom,<00:20:34.490> especially<00:20:34.891> when<00:20:34.987> you're<00:20:35.372> working<00:20:35.645> in<00:20:35.725> digital<00:20:36.046> media<00:20:36.351> and<00:20:36.415> you<00:20:36.512> can<00:20:36.656> just<00:20:36.832> like<00:20:36.993> share<00:20:37.218> your<00:20:37.474> screen<00:20:38.662> and<00:20:38.838> just<00:20:39.015> say,<00:20:39.384> move<00:20:39.561> that<00:20:39.801> thing<00:20:40.026> over<00:20:40.202> there.

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You<00:20:40.379> know,<00:20:40.523> like,<00:20:41.631> oh,<00:20:41.952> Loom<00:20:42.995> is,<00:20:43.396> is<00:20:43.637> the,<00:20:44.680> I<00:20:44.760> would<00:20:44.920> say<00:20:45.097> it<00:20:45.177> saves<00:20:45.642> me<00:20:45.803> a<00:20:45.819> half<00:20:46.060> an<00:20:46.124> hour<00:20:46.300> a<00:20:46.381> day.

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And<00:20:47.409> I<00:20:47.891> can't<00:20:48.132> think<00:20:48.244> of<00:20:48.373> any<00:20:48.550> other<00:20:48.775> tool<00:20:49.433> released<00:20:49.819> in<00:20:49.899> the<00:20:49.980> last,<00:20:50.397> you<00:20:50.494> know,<00:20:52.085> 5,<00:20:52.567> 10<00:20:52.743> years<00:20:53.209> that<00:20:53.386> has<00:20:53.531> done<00:20:53.756> that.

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That's<00:20:54.897> a<00:20:54.961> good<00:20:55.138> answer.

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What<00:20:56.407> do<00:20:56.488> you<00:20:56.520> think<00:20:57.387> from<00:20:57.693> like,<00:20:57.950> we're<00:20:58.271> going<00:20:58.673> in,<00:20:58.753> it's<00:20:58.914> 2025,<00:20:59.942> we're<00:21:00.039> in<00:21:00.119> the<00:21:00.264> first<00:21:00.521> month<00:21:00.778> of<00:21:00.922> it.

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How<00:21:01.726> are<00:21:01.887> you<00:21:02.047> thinking<00:21:02.385> about<00:21:02.931> this<00:21:03.236> year<00:21:03.590> from<00:21:03.815> an<00:21:03.895> economic<00:21:04.538> standpoint,<00:21:05.341> from<00:21:05.502> an<00:21:05.647> advertising<00:21:06.145> standpoint,<00:21:06.547> like<00:21:06.772> everything<00:21:07.093> that<00:21:07.254> you're<00:21:07.655> focused<00:21:08.057> on<00:21:08.700> versus<00:21:09.037> last<00:21:09.359> year?

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You<00:21:09.600> think<00:21:09.696> it's<00:21:09.825> going<00:21:09.889> to<00:21:09.921> be<00:21:10.001> the<00:21:10.082> same,<00:21:10.708> different,<00:21:11.126> better?

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I've<00:21:12.973> kind<00:21:13.311> of<00:21:13.856> gotten<00:21:14.177> to<00:21:14.258> a<00:21:14.338> place<00:21:14.804> where<00:21:15.863> I've<00:21:16.024> been<00:21:16.345> wrong<00:21:16.890> too<00:21:17.051> many<00:21:17.308> times<00:21:17.773> when<00:21:17.870> I've<00:21:18.094> tried<00:21:18.432> to<00:21:18.592> predict<00:21:19.074> that.

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Uh,<00:21:21.000> so,<00:21:21.787> you<00:21:21.819> know,<00:21:22.284> look,<00:21:22.846> Trump's<00:21:23.151> doing<00:21:23.280> a<00:21:23.328> lot<00:21:23.569> of<00:21:24.195> really<00:21:24.532> fast,<00:21:25.158> crazy<00:21:25.575> things,<00:21:26.378> and,<00:21:26.635> and<00:21:26.859> who<00:21:27.004> knows<00:21:27.261> where<00:21:27.421> that's<00:21:27.646> going<00:21:27.726> to<00:21:27.823> go.

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It<00:21:28.144> could<00:21:28.385> be<00:21:28.545> a<00:21:28.690> very<00:21:28.946> big<00:21:29.332> economic<00:21:29.813> positive.

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It<00:21:31.194> could<00:21:31.354> be<00:21:31.515> a<00:21:31.531> short-term<00:21:32.141> economic<00:21:32.558> positive<00:21:33.024> that<00:21:33.120> changes<00:21:33.522> to<00:21:33.682> a<00:21:33.698> negative<00:21:34.164> quickly.

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We,<00:21:34.870> we<00:21:35.111> really<00:21:35.368> don't<00:21:35.673> know.

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Uh,<00:21:37.198> I<00:21:37.358> will<00:21:37.455> say<00:21:37.615> that,<00:21:38.000> that,<00:21:38.402> uh,<00:21:38.659> you<00:21:38.707> know,<00:21:39.140> our—<00:21:40.103> one<00:21:40.264> of<00:21:40.360> the<00:21:40.505> KPIs<00:21:41.051> that<00:21:41.131> we<00:21:41.243> just<00:21:41.372> have<00:21:41.484> to<00:21:41.693> look<00:21:41.869> at<00:21:42.030> is<00:21:42.110> sort<00:21:42.351> of<00:21:42.897> broad<00:21:43.636> internet<00:21:44.262> advert—<00:21:44.600> well,<00:21:44.825> broad<00:21:45.226> advertising,<00:21:45.965> and<00:21:46.046> then<00:21:46.222> it<00:21:46.367> trickles<00:21:46.688> down<00:21:46.945> into<00:21:47.170> broad<00:21:47.732> digital<00:21:48.038> media<00:21:48.295> advertising.

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And<00:21:49.564> we've<00:21:49.966> actually<00:21:50.142> seen<00:21:50.303> some<00:21:50.464> very<00:21:50.769> positive,<00:21:52.215> uh,<00:21:52.632> I<00:21:52.697> would<00:21:52.793> say<00:21:52.970> starting<00:21:53.516> in<00:21:53.596> the<00:21:53.693> second<00:21:54.175> half<00:21:54.640> of<00:21:54.801> last<00:21:55.267> year,<00:21:56.408> we<00:21:57.452> have<00:21:57.612> been<00:21:57.757> just<00:21:57.870> seeing<00:21:58.239> just<00:21:59.139> better,<00:22:00.408> uh,<00:22:00.890> ad<00:22:01.291> dollars<00:22:02.014> overall.

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And<00:22:03.541> I<00:22:03.637> thought<00:22:03.942> at<00:22:04.039> first,<00:22:04.344> oh,<00:22:04.440> it's<00:22:04.537> an<00:22:04.665> Olympics<00:22:05.002> thing,<00:22:05.324> right?

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You<00:22:05.741> know,<00:22:06.031> like<00:22:06.207> there's<00:22:06.304> always<00:22:07.155> weird<00:22:07.493> macro<00:22:07.974> ad<00:22:08.232> spends<00:22:08.713> around<00:22:09.260> big<00:22:09.806> worldwide<00:22:10.224> events,<00:22:10.625> but<00:22:10.786> it's<00:22:11.107> continued<00:22:11.653> on<00:22:12.312> through<00:22:12.537> that.

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So<00:22:13.195> as<00:22:13.292> of<00:22:13.436> now,<00:22:13.838> I'm<00:22:14.384> somewhat<00:22:14.721> bullish,<00:22:15.669> but<00:22:16.006> I've<00:22:16.970> been<00:22:17.131> wrong<00:22:17.934> every<00:22:18.095> time<00:22:18.400> I've<00:22:18.576> thought<00:22:18.834> about<00:22:19.123> that<00:22:19.299> in<00:22:19.380> the<00:22:19.460> past.

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So<00:22:20.408> I<00:22:20.504> think<00:22:20.745> anybody<00:22:21.773> listening<00:22:22.094> to<00:22:22.175> this<00:22:22.496> should<00:22:22.898> pretty<00:22:23.604> much<00:22:23.781> ignore<00:22:23.974> me<00:22:24.118> on<00:22:25.468> that.

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Finally,<00:22:27.331> we<00:22:27.476> end<00:22:27.636> every<00:22:27.749> interview<00:22:28.006> with<00:22:28.134> the<00:22:28.215> same<00:22:28.439> question,<00:22:29.018> and<00:22:29.162> that<00:22:29.339> is<00:22:29.500> at<00:22:29.564> CEO.com,<00:22:30.383> we<00:22:30.544> believe<00:22:30.785> the<00:22:30.865> chances<00:22:31.331> one<00:22:31.668> gives<00:22:32.214> is<00:22:32.311> just<00:22:32.471> as<00:22:32.552> important<00:22:32.857> as<00:22:32.953> the<00:22:33.034> chances<00:22:33.435> one<00:22:33.596> takes.

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When<00:22:34.961> you<00:22:35.186> hear<00:22:35.298> that,<00:22:35.523> who<00:22:35.684> gave<00:22:35.861> you<00:22:36.005> a<00:22:36.070> chance<00:22:36.391> to<00:22:36.471> get<00:22:36.632> you<00:22:36.728> to<00:22:36.808> where<00:22:36.969> you<00:22:37.130> are<00:22:37.290> today?

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You<00:22:40.103> know,<00:22:40.672> I<00:22:40.818> think,<00:22:41.550> um,<00:22:41.891> I'm,<00:22:42.216> this<00:22:42.443> is<00:22:42.541> a<00:22:42.703> little<00:22:43.012> bit<00:22:43.597> cheesy,<00:22:44.475> but<00:22:44.588> I'm<00:22:44.733> going<00:22:45.120> to<00:22:45.217> say<00:22:45.540> that<00:22:45.782> like,<00:22:47.862> so<00:22:48.282> I,<00:22:49.879> I<00:22:50.604> really<00:22:50.927> only<00:22:51.330> worked<00:22:51.911> in<00:22:52.940> a<00:22:53.020> corporate<00:22:53.679> capacity<00:22:54.466> for<00:22:54.642> a<00:22:54.723> few<00:22:55.189> years<00:22:55.526> before<00:22:55.847> I<00:22:55.928> went<00:22:56.153> off<00:22:56.329> on<00:22:56.361> my<00:22:56.570> own.

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And,<00:22:58.000> um,<00:22:59.446> I,<00:22:59.783> uh,<00:23:00.008> and<00:23:00.089> I<00:23:00.105> was<00:23:00.249> working<00:23:00.506> at<00:23:00.651> record<00:23:01.053> labels,<00:23:01.470> so<00:23:01.711> it<00:23:01.760> wasn't<00:23:01.874> the<00:23:01.939> most<00:23:02.201> corporate<00:23:02.757> gig<00:23:03.345> to,<00:23:03.590> to,<00:23:03.917> to,<00:23:04.490> to,<00:23:05.045> um,<00:23:05.652> you<00:23:05.732> know,<00:23:06.150> to<00:23:06.279> begin<00:23:06.536> with.

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And<00:23:08.369> I<00:23:08.545> think<00:23:08.851> that<00:23:09.012> the<00:23:09.092> fact<00:23:09.574> that<00:23:10.780> my<00:23:10.941> parents,<00:23:11.278> especially<00:23:11.616> my<00:23:11.760> father,<00:23:12.082> my<00:23:12.178> father<00:23:12.484> was<00:23:12.628> a<00:23:12.709> corporate<00:23:13.046> guy,<00:23:13.448> right?

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He<00:23:13.850> worked<00:23:14.140> for<00:23:15.047> AT&T,<00:23:16.035> which<00:23:16.197> was<00:23:16.521> before<00:23:16.845> that<00:23:16.942> it<00:23:17.007> was<00:23:17.314> Illinois<00:23:17.574> Bell.

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And<00:23:17.995> it<00:23:18.059> was,<00:23:18.286> you<00:23:18.319> know,<00:23:18.869> and<00:23:18.950> he<00:23:19.112> was<00:23:19.339> a<00:23:19.776> 60-hour-a-week<00:23:20.878> grind-it-out<00:23:21.704> kind<00:23:21.882> of<00:23:22.012> corporate<00:23:22.417> guy.

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And,<00:23:24.231> you<00:23:24.264> know,<00:23:24.719> he<00:23:24.881> basically<00:23:25.466> kind<00:23:25.709> of<00:23:25.774> said,<00:23:26.440> listen,<00:23:28.714> I<00:23:28.876> will<00:23:29.753> make<00:23:29.932> sure<00:23:31.133> that<00:23:31.328> since<00:23:31.622> I'm<00:23:32.943> seeing<00:23:33.334> my<00:23:33.432> son<00:23:33.823> wanting<00:23:34.068> to<00:23:34.150> be<00:23:34.247> an<00:23:34.394> entrepreneur<00:23:34.981> and<00:23:35.079> go<00:23:35.144> off<00:23:35.210> on<00:23:35.291> his<00:23:35.389> own,<00:23:36.618> I<00:23:36.698> will<00:23:38.001> back<00:23:38.386> you<00:23:38.563> with<00:23:38.789> it,<00:23:39.528> not<00:23:39.769> just<00:23:40.075> from<00:23:40.252> the<00:23:40.493> perspective<00:23:40.992> of,<00:23:41.217> yeah,<00:23:41.442> you<00:23:41.522> have<00:23:41.619> my<00:23:41.780> blessing,<00:23:42.246> but<00:23:42.407> also<00:23:42.744> like<00:23:43.002> if<00:23:43.146> things<00:23:43.388> go<00:23:43.613> wrong,<00:23:45.554> I<00:23:45.699> can<00:23:46.760> provide<00:23:47.082> some<00:23:47.243> financial<00:23:47.725> backstop<00:23:48.288> for<00:23:48.433> a<00:23:48.449> little<00:23:48.674> while.

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And<00:23:49.398> honestly,<00:23:50.460> I<00:23:50.476> didn't<00:23:50.862> have<00:23:51.023> a<00:23:51.039> lot<00:23:51.184> of<00:23:51.216> money<00:23:51.489> when<00:23:51.586> I<00:23:51.602> started<00:23:51.907> my<00:23:52.068> first<00:23:52.310> businesses.

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And<00:23:54.084> at<00:23:54.246> one<00:23:54.424> point<00:23:54.586> in<00:23:54.667> time,<00:23:54.910> I<00:23:54.975> had<00:23:55.137> 4<00:23:55.396> businesses<00:23:55.947> going<00:23:56.206> at<00:23:56.352> once.

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And<00:23:56.870> so,<00:23:57.356> it's<00:23:57.745> kind<00:23:57.972> of<00:23:58.004> cheesy<00:23:58.328> to<00:23:58.409> say<00:23:58.701> that,<00:23:58.879> but<00:23:59.025> I<00:23:59.057> know<00:23:59.187> a<00:23:59.203> lot<00:23:59.462> of<00:23:59.527> people<00:23:59.786> find<00:24:00.094> that<00:24:00.175> their<00:24:00.337> parents<00:24:00.645> have<00:24:00.742> these<00:24:00.904> high<00:24:01.131> expectations<00:24:01.730> of<00:24:01.795> them<00:24:01.957> to<00:24:02.038> follow<00:24:02.427> in<00:24:02.524> certain<00:24:02.848> footsteps.

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And<00:24:03.657> my<00:24:03.818> father<00:24:04.075> was<00:24:04.235> kind<00:24:04.412> of<00:24:04.476> the<00:24:04.621> opposite.

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He<00:24:05.103> was<00:24:05.264> just<00:24:05.424> like,<00:24:05.826> I<00:24:05.987> was<00:24:06.099> a<00:24:06.228> corporate<00:24:06.565> guy<00:24:06.790> and<00:24:06.886> I<00:24:06.903> didn't<00:24:07.352> like<00:24:07.610> that.

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And<00:24:08.397> I,<00:24:08.558> you<00:24:08.590> know,<00:24:08.654> I<00:24:08.879> liked<00:24:09.072> it<00:24:09.136> for<00:24:09.281> a<00:24:09.361> long<00:24:09.602> time<00:24:09.859> until<00:24:10.100> it<00:24:10.245> ended.

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And<00:24:10.984> then<00:24:11.144> I<00:24:11.160> got<00:24:11.450> early<00:24:11.626> retired<00:24:12.124> and<00:24:12.189> I<00:24:12.349> couldn't<00:24:12.735> do<00:24:12.831> another<00:24:13.153> gig.

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So<00:24:13.715> I<00:24:13.876> really<00:24:14.261> want<00:24:14.583> you<00:24:15.242> to<00:24:15.322> go<00:24:15.547> out<00:24:16.125> and<00:24:16.350> do<00:24:16.511> what<00:24:16.752> you<00:24:16.913> want<00:24:17.089> to<00:24:17.170> do<00:24:17.652> and<00:24:17.796> be<00:24:17.877> your<00:24:18.053> own<00:24:18.214> boss<00:24:18.792> and<00:24:19.564> be<00:24:19.660> your<00:24:19.885> own<00:24:20.062> boss.

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That's<00:24:21.187> the,<00:24:21.347> you<00:24:21.428> know,<00:24:22.231> be,<00:24:22.633> please<00:24:23.034> be<00:24:23.195> your<00:24:23.420> own<00:24:23.516> boss.

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Right.

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Was<00:24:24.320> kind<00:24:24.496> of<00:24:24.545> the<00:24:24.657> thing<00:24:24.802> that<00:24:24.882> he<00:24:24.962> drummed<00:24:25.284> into<00:24:25.460> me.

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So<00:24:25.830> a<00:24:25.846> little<00:24:27.051> cheesy<00:24:27.356> to<00:24:27.389> say<00:24:27.597> your<00:24:27.694> dad,<00:24:28.015> but<00:24:28.192> I'm<00:24:28.288> going<00:24:28.369> to<00:24:28.433> say<00:24:28.513> my<00:24:28.658> dad.

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You're<00:24:29.060> kidding.

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It's<00:24:29.768> perfect.

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I<00:24:30.496> love<00:24:30.690> it.

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That's,<00:24:31.305> that's<00:24:31.547> the<00:24:31.644> answer<00:24:32.275> that<00:24:32.696> everybody<00:24:33.100> wishes<00:24:33.488> they<00:24:33.585> could<00:24:33.747> say<00:24:34.006> is<00:24:34.216> their<00:24:34.475> dad<00:24:34.798> or<00:24:34.879> their<00:24:35.041> mom.

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It's<00:24:35.834> wonderful.

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Clark,<00:24:37.063> thank<00:24:37.289> you<00:24:37.322> so<00:24:37.548> much<00:24:38.421> for<00:24:38.599> coming<00:24:38.842> on.

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Congratulations<00:24:39.827> on<00:24:39.956> everything<00:24:40.279> you<00:24:40.376> built.

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And<00:24:41.571> yeah,<00:24:41.830> it<00:24:41.894> really<00:24:42.088> means<00:24:42.314> a<00:24:42.330> lot<00:24:42.573> to<00:24:42.799> have<00:24:42.976> you<00:24:43.041> here.

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Thanks<00:24:44.155> for<00:24:44.236> having<00:24:44.478> me.

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And<00:24:45.221> thanks<00:24:45.447> everybody<00:24:45.690> for<00:24:45.770> watching.

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We<00:24:58.668> are<00:24:58.829> wah-wee,<00:24:59.377> yes,<00:24:59.715> we<00:25:00.021> rule<00:25:00.182> our<00:25:00.923> own<00:25:01.390> domain.

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Yeah,<00:25:04.209> keep<00:25:04.450> our<00:25:04.789> heads<00:25:05.175> up<00:25:05.240> high,<00:25:05.435> pushing<00:25:05.695> on<00:25:05.826> like<00:25:06.412> a<00:25:06.722> chugging<00:25:07.634> train.

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Loving<00:25:10.812> you<00:25:11.145> makes<00:25:11.395> the<00:25:11.561> world<00:25:11.911> spin<00:25:12.310> faster.

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Yeah,<00:25:15.834> ain't<00:25:16.240> enough<00:25:16.500> days<00:25:16.711> in<00:25:16.874> the<00:25:17.215> week<00:25:17.686> for<00:25:18.433> us<00:25:18.514> to<00:25:18.676> kiss.

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We<00:25:21.174> are<00:25:21.354> explorers,<00:25:22.579> we're<00:25:22.808> seeking<00:25:23.952> higher<00:25:25.520> place.