Masterful Coaching CEO Robert Hargrove: The truth about coaching CEOs

The CEO whisperer says he failed

Robert Hargrove wrote Masterful Coaching before executive coaching was an industry. The book is in its third edition. His clients have included the Chairman of the New York Stock Exchange, presidential appointees, and companies like Nike, Chevron, UBS, and Toyota. For 30 years, his stated mission has been to get powerful people to stand for something bigger than themselves.

"I have to say that I've failed to some degree," he said on the CEO.com Podcast. "I can't honestly say I influenced that many CEOs to transcend their preoccupation with money and power."

Hargrove started as an editor at the Boston Globe, interviewing Henry Kissinger, Muhammad Ali, and Salvador Dalí. He noticed that his editing made his subjects sound better than they actually sounded. "So then I started to feel like, gee, I have a voice." That led to a decade of leadership weekends, about a hundred people at a time, more than 30,000 people in all by his firm's count. Then he noticed the format's limits.

"There's a difference between insights and results," he said, and he traded three-day immersions for year-long coaching relationships with executives.

"When I wrote the book Masterful Coaching, coaching didn't exist," he said. "There were only sports coaches and music coaches. And now, somebody told me the other day, if you throw a rock, you might hit a coach."

He does not consider that progress. The industry he helped create is now, in his view, thick with exploitative get-rich schemes. "I'm sick and tired of all the hype. I see myself as one of the keepers of the flame of what masterful coaching is really about. I never did it to make money."

He is unusually candid about why he chose CEOs. "To be honest, to some extent, I'm attracted to the glamour and power that CEOs have. These are charismatic, attractive people, and I like their money and power." The bet was that if he could elevate the aspirations of people with that much leverage, the effects would spread. He describes it, tongue in cheek, as trying to save CEOs from damnation. He helped people reach the top. He helped with multi-billion dollar transactions and turnarounds.

What he mostly could not do was move his clients past the money. "Many of the CEOs I've run across are very small-minded, very petty. They don't have a big enough dream." He names Bill Gates, whom he never coached, as a leader who made a fortune and then went to work on something larger. He struggles to name many others. One client paid his company more than half a million dollars for a leadership project and showed no interest in the work. What the man wanted was his name on a university building.

The exception was the Pentagon, where Hargrove worked with four-star generals and admirals. "There was something else that was bigger than money and power. It was patriotism. I remember one guy talking to me about how proud he was to put on the cloth of the nation and go to work every day."

Asked what makes a great leader, he pointed to the presidential historian Doris Kearns Goodwin, whose book Leadership: In Turbulent Times draws its answers from Lincoln, both Roosevelts, and Lyndon Johnson. Great leadership, as Hargrove summarized her work, comes down to character traits rather than credentials: standing for something bigger than yourself, character, empathy, humility, and what he says she calls the doubleness of ambition. Lincoln schemed his way to the presidency, then issued the Emancipation Proclamation.

Johnson was warned that pursuing a civil rights bill in his first hundred days would burn all his political capital. His reply, in Hargrove's telling: "Then what the hell is the presidency for?" That, Hargrove argues, is what most CEOs are missing. "Their ambition isn't big enough. It stops at the profitability index for this quarter or this year."

Every episode of the CEO.com Podcast ends with the same question, built on the belief that the chances one gives are just as important as the chances one takes: who gave you a chance? For Hargrove, it was a phone call in 1978, during a blizzard. Werner Erhard was scheduled to speak somewhere and couldn't make it, and someone asked Hargrove, then a newspaper editor terrified of public speaking, to fill in. Midway through the talk, he walked to the back of the room and bent over so he could breathe. It ended in a standing ovation. He can no longer remember the name of the person who called.

00:00:06 Introduction and Guest Background
00:00:29 From Journalism to Leadership Seminars
00:02:26 Shift to One-on-One Coaching
00:03:23 The Rise of the Coaching Industry
00:05:31 Reflections on Coaching CEOs
00:08:28 CEOs' Preoccupation With Money and Power
00:09:48 Examples of Successful Leaders
00:11:12 Identity and Leadership
00:12:21 Case Study on Personal Ambition
00:13:42 Characteristics of Great Leaders
00:18:03 Historical Examples of Leadership
00:20:52 Closing Remarks and Final Question

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Yeah.

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Actually,<00:03:42.130> Leland?

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I<00:03:48.762> think<00:03:48.987> there's<00:03:49.726> a—<00:03:49.919> let<00:03:50.787> me<00:03:50.947> see.

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There's<00:03:52.924> the<00:03:53.020> traditional<00:03:54.210> career<00:03:54.692> path<00:03:54.949> that<00:03:55.045> most<00:03:55.351> of<00:03:55.431> us<00:03:55.575> have<00:03:56.154> where<00:03:56.459> we're<00:03:57.279> a<00:03:57.359> doctor<00:03:58.083> or<00:03:58.244> a<00:03:58.260> lawyer<00:04:00.016> or<00:04:00.418> a<00:04:00.483> CEO.

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But<00:04:03.140> what<00:04:03.301> happened<00:04:03.704> is<00:04:03.961> I<00:04:04.123> think<00:04:05.008> partially<00:04:05.556> as<00:04:05.669> a<00:04:05.717> result<00:04:06.861> of<00:04:06.990> the<00:04:07.022> baby<00:04:07.427> boomer,<00:04:08.060> baby<00:04:08.400> boom,<00:04:09.033> we<00:04:09.211> wound<00:04:09.519> up<00:04:09.697> with<00:04:09.843> a<00:04:09.924> lot<00:04:10.103> of<00:04:10.184> people<00:04:10.654> with<00:04:10.767> a<00:04:10.913> very<00:04:11.027> high<00:04:11.076> degree<00:04:11.173> of<00:04:11.205> professional<00:04:11.367> expertise<00:04:14.038> personal<00:04:14.452> mastery,<00:04:18.544> subject<00:04:19.075> matter<00:04:19.349> knowledge<00:04:21.024> that<00:04:21.588> wound<00:04:21.974> up<00:04:22.393> retiring<00:04:23.118> too<00:04:23.295> early.

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That's<00:04:24.245> in<00:04:24.390> one<00:04:24.632> case.

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So,<00:04:25.469> we<00:04:25.920> have<00:04:26.033> a<00:04:26.081> lot<00:04:26.484> of<00:04:26.548> people<00:04:26.742> in<00:04:26.806> America<00:04:29.001> who<00:04:29.146> can<00:04:29.388> provide<00:04:29.969> expert<00:04:30.469> secrets<00:04:31.325> that<00:04:31.486> will<00:04:31.583> help<00:04:32.293> various<00:04:32.632> people<00:04:32.890> solve<00:04:33.196> problems.

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And<00:04:34.229> I<00:04:34.326> think<00:04:34.552> that's<00:04:34.746> a<00:04:34.875> good<00:04:35.068> thing.

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We<00:04:35.310> should<00:04:35.536> be<00:04:35.617> able<00:04:36.101> to<00:04:36.264> take<00:04:36.329> advantage<00:04:36.851> of<00:04:37.912> the<00:04:37.993> knowledge<00:04:38.875> capital<00:04:39.429> that<00:04:39.592> we<00:04:39.690> have<00:04:39.935> in<00:04:40.000> our<00:04:40.115> society<00:04:40.816> to<00:04:40.914> solve<00:04:41.865> big<00:04:42.091> problems.

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On<00:04:43.304> the<00:04:43.385> other<00:04:43.547> hand,<00:04:43.806> a<00:04:43.822> lot<00:04:43.968> of<00:04:44.113> people<00:04:44.324> have<00:04:44.437> glommed<00:04:44.842> on<00:04:44.939> to<00:04:45.100> coaching<00:04:45.505> as<00:04:45.667> a<00:04:45.731> way<00:04:45.828> to<00:04:45.909> make<00:04:46.087> a<00:04:46.217> fast<00:04:46.621> buck.

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I<00:04:48.988> go<00:04:49.165> on<00:04:50.049> YouTube<00:04:50.515> all<00:04:50.611> the<00:04:50.756> time<00:04:51.109> and<00:04:51.559> Facebook,<00:04:53.424> and<00:04:53.504> there's<00:04:53.729> so<00:04:53.906> many<00:04:54.147> people<00:04:55.658> selling<00:04:56.156> get-rich<00:04:56.783> schemes<00:04:57.265> on<00:04:57.442> coaching,<00:04:58.410> it's<00:04:58.555> unbelievable.

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I'm<00:05:00.781> sort<00:05:01.152> of<00:05:01.248> sick<00:05:01.555> and<00:05:01.636> tired<00:05:01.797> of<00:05:02.023> all<00:05:02.119> the<00:05:02.265> hype.

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I<00:05:02.539> can<00:05:02.684> get<00:05:02.845> you<00:05:02.926> 20<00:05:03.249> clients<00:05:04.120> by<00:05:04.216> the<00:05:04.378> end<00:05:04.539> of<00:05:04.604> the<00:05:04.684> month,<00:05:05.168> and<00:05:06.152> most<00:05:06.410> of<00:05:06.491> it<00:05:06.571> is<00:05:06.717> very<00:05:07.039> exploitative.

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And<00:05:09.259> so<00:05:09.484> I'm<00:05:09.948> not<00:05:10.141> happy<00:05:10.429> about<00:05:10.686> that<00:05:10.910> at<00:05:11.070> all.

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I<00:05:12.288> see<00:05:12.448> myself<00:05:12.945> as<00:05:13.153> one<00:05:13.394> of<00:05:13.490> the<00:05:13.634> keepers<00:05:13.986> of<00:05:14.115> the<00:05:14.211> flame<00:05:14.467> of<00:05:14.611> what<00:05:15.076> Masterful<00:05:15.653> Coaching<00:05:16.774> is<00:05:16.919> really<00:05:17.191> about.

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And<00:05:18.457> I<00:05:18.553> never<00:05:18.874> did<00:05:19.034> it<00:05:19.178> to<00:05:19.274> make<00:05:19.579> money.

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I<00:05:20.043> did<00:05:20.155> it<00:05:20.220> because<00:05:20.604> I<00:05:21.341> like<00:05:21.742> doing<00:05:21.982> something<00:05:22.463> that<00:05:22.623> would<00:05:22.767> help<00:05:22.944> people<00:05:23.328> be<00:05:23.440> more,<00:05:23.825> achieve<00:05:24.290> more,<00:05:25.171> and<00:05:25.571> have<00:05:25.828> more<00:05:26.052> than<00:05:26.148> they<00:05:26.292> ever<00:05:26.453> thought<00:05:26.709> possible.

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If<00:05:27.735> money<00:05:27.911> came<00:05:28.215> in,<00:05:28.311> that<00:05:28.472> was<00:05:28.632> good,<00:05:28.872> but<00:05:29.353> that<00:05:29.433> was<00:05:29.593> never<00:05:29.818> my<00:05:29.994> modus<00:05:30.539> operandi.

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As<00:05:31.660> you<00:05:31.821> look<00:05:31.981> back<00:05:32.173> at<00:05:32.301> your<00:05:32.397> clients,<00:05:32.718> and<00:05:32.766> I'm<00:05:32.878> not<00:05:33.038> asking<00:05:33.423> you<00:05:33.519> to<00:05:33.663> disclose<00:05:34.080> who<00:05:34.144> your<00:05:34.304> clients<00:05:34.641> are,<00:05:36.068> over<00:05:36.245> the<00:05:36.389> years,<00:05:37.369> like,<00:05:37.674> how<00:05:37.850> do<00:05:37.914> you<00:05:38.075> think<00:05:38.252> about<00:05:38.573> what<00:05:38.797> they<00:05:38.958> accomplished<00:05:39.776> following<00:05:40.258> their<00:05:40.483> relationship<00:05:41.061> with<00:05:41.205> you<00:05:41.462> or<00:05:41.622> during<00:05:42.024> their<00:05:42.184> relationship<00:05:42.826> with<00:05:42.987> you?

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Is<00:05:43.468> that<00:05:43.645> something<00:05:44.014> that<00:05:44.111> you<00:05:44.191> look<00:05:44.432> back<00:05:44.737> on<00:05:45.154> with<00:05:45.395> pride?

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I'm<00:05:46.278> sure<00:05:47.706> to<00:05:47.803> some<00:05:48.188> extent.

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I<00:05:49.311> was<00:05:49.488> thinking<00:05:49.649> about<00:05:49.889> this<00:05:50.050> before<00:05:50.371> I<00:05:50.451> got<00:05:50.596> on<00:05:50.788> this<00:05:51.013> call<00:05:52.779> because<00:05:53.084> I<00:05:53.100> was<00:05:53.244> thinking,<00:05:53.405> well,<00:05:53.565> what<00:05:53.678> do<00:05:53.902> I<00:05:54.127> have<00:05:54.400> to<00:05:54.480> say?

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And<00:05:57.899> I<00:05:57.980> think<00:05:58.156> what<00:05:58.301> I've<00:05:58.541> done<00:05:58.782> over<00:05:58.975> the<00:05:59.103> years<00:05:59.505> is<00:05:59.858> I've<00:06:00.147> been<00:06:00.307> fascinated<00:06:00.965> and<00:06:01.062> intrigued<00:06:01.591> by<00:06:01.768> working<00:06:02.153> with<00:06:02.250> CEOs.

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Why?

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To<00:06:05.944> be<00:06:06.154> honest,<00:06:06.396> to<00:06:06.493> some<00:06:06.735> extent,<00:06:07.123> I'm<00:06:07.397> attracted<00:06:07.801> to<00:06:07.946> the<00:06:08.092> glamour<00:06:08.673> and<00:06:08.834> power<00:06:10.352> that<00:06:10.449> CEOs<00:06:10.950> have.

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Somebody<00:06:13.282> like<00:06:13.847> Jamie<00:06:14.266> Dimon<00:06:14.751> of<00:06:14.832> JPMorgan,<00:06:16.043> Jensen<00:06:16.527> Huang,<00:06:19.256> Elon<00:06:19.676> Musk,<00:06:20.871> whoever<00:06:21.371> it<00:06:21.614> is.

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There's<00:06:22.099> a<00:06:22.277> certain<00:06:22.973> animal<00:06:23.313> attraction<00:06:23.944> I<00:06:24.025> have.

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These<00:06:24.462> are<00:06:24.527> charismatic,<00:06:25.255> attractive<00:06:25.822> people,<00:06:26.696> and<00:06:26.793> I<00:06:26.939> like<00:06:27.133> their<00:06:27.295> money<00:06:27.537> and<00:06:27.667> power.

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But<00:06:28.266> in<00:06:28.347> a<00:06:28.411> way,<00:06:28.654> what<00:06:28.800> I've<00:06:28.962> tried<00:06:29.221> to<00:06:29.366> do<00:06:29.609> for<00:06:29.739> the<00:06:29.868> past<00:06:30.462> 30<00:06:30.782> years<00:06:31.921> is<00:06:32.146> to<00:06:33.525> save<00:06:34.247> CEOs<00:06:35.418> from<00:06:35.659> damnation.

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I'm<00:06:37.600> not<00:06:37.824> a<00:06:37.920> religious<00:06:38.402> person.

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I<00:06:39.188> say<00:06:39.364> that<00:06:39.508> in<00:06:39.605> a<00:06:39.685> tongue-in-cheek<00:06:40.246> way<00:06:40.471> because<00:06:42.155> I<00:06:42.396> think<00:06:42.636> that<00:06:42.957> working<00:06:43.358> with<00:06:43.679> the<00:06:43.775> coaching<00:06:44.192> CEOs<00:06:45.524> is<00:06:45.684> one<00:06:45.780> of<00:06:45.844> the<00:06:45.941> most<00:06:46.326> powerful<00:06:46.823> things<00:06:47.047> you<00:06:47.208> can<00:06:47.465> do<00:06:48.427> to<00:06:48.523> make<00:06:48.812> a<00:06:48.892> difference<00:06:49.245> in<00:06:49.373> the<00:06:49.470> world.

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So<00:06:50.592> because<00:06:50.913> CEOs<00:06:51.699> have<00:06:51.956> a<00:06:51.972> lot<00:06:52.453> of<00:06:52.597> power,<00:06:53.624> they<00:06:53.720> have<00:06:53.897> a<00:06:53.945> lot<00:06:54.282> of<00:06:54.362> money,<00:06:55.790> and<00:06:55.886> to<00:06:55.982> some<00:06:56.271> extent<00:06:56.928> they're<00:06:57.169> very<00:06:57.506> effective.

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You<00:06:58.115> don't<00:06:58.292> get<00:06:58.452> to<00:06:58.532> be<00:06:58.677> the<00:06:58.773> CEO<00:06:59.431> if<00:06:59.575> you're<00:06:59.736> an<00:06:59.880> ineffective<00:07:00.457> person.

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They're<00:07:01.356> very<00:07:01.660> effective.

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And<00:07:04.794> what<00:07:05.020> I've<00:07:05.279> done<00:07:05.683> is<00:07:05.845> to<00:07:06.071> try<00:07:06.492> to<00:07:08.173> engage<00:07:08.674> those<00:07:08.932> people<00:07:09.256> in<00:07:09.401> relationships.

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And<00:07:10.452> I<00:07:10.533> think<00:07:10.775> primarily<00:07:11.341> what<00:07:11.487> I've<00:07:11.729> done,<00:07:13.926> it's<00:07:14.055> somewhat<00:07:14.590> under<00:07:14.752> the<00:07:14.832> cloak<00:07:15.173> and<00:07:16.112> it's<00:07:16.436> sort<00:07:16.695> of<00:07:16.840> a<00:07:16.921> cloak<00:07:17.180> and<00:07:17.261> dagger<00:07:17.666> thing,<00:07:18.411> is<00:07:18.541> try<00:07:18.719> to<00:07:18.945> elevate<00:07:19.447> their<00:07:19.755> aspirations<00:07:21.390> and<00:07:21.536> motivations<00:07:23.075> so<00:07:23.172> that<00:07:23.431> the<00:07:23.496> CEOs<00:07:24.371> don't<00:07:24.549> just<00:07:24.873> focus<00:07:25.343> on<00:07:25.748> delivering<00:07:26.250> next<00:07:26.574> quarter's<00:07:26.963> returns<00:07:27.465> for<00:07:27.611> Wall<00:07:27.789> Street,<00:07:28.032> but<00:07:28.259> do<00:07:28.421> something<00:07:29.193> that<00:07:29.338> makes<00:07:29.597> a<00:07:29.613> difference<00:07:30.017> in<00:07:30.147> the<00:07:30.244> world.

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When<00:07:31.117> I<00:07:31.279> look<00:07:31.457> back<00:07:31.845> over<00:07:32.362> the<00:07:32.491> people<00:07:32.912> that<00:07:33.057> I've<00:07:33.316> worked<00:07:33.720> with,<00:07:34.044> the<00:07:34.205> different<00:07:34.448> CEOs,<00:07:34.917> I've<00:07:35.176> helped<00:07:35.483> a<00:07:35.645> lot<00:07:35.903> of<00:07:36.049> people<00:07:36.777> become<00:07:37.262> CEOs.

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I've<00:07:40.029> helped<00:07:40.353> a<00:07:40.498> lot<00:07:40.676> of<00:07:40.757> people<00:07:41.243> get<00:07:41.485> to<00:07:41.647> the<00:07:41.809> top,<00:07:43.023> find<00:07:43.330> the<00:07:43.427> path<00:07:43.751> to<00:07:43.913> power,<00:07:45.029> get<00:07:45.191> into<00:07:45.450> the<00:07:45.531> CEO<00:07:46.016> position.

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And<00:07:49.323> I've<00:07:49.436> helped<00:07:49.645> with<00:07:50.225> multibillion-dollar<00:07:51.353> transactions,<00:07:52.739> disruptive<00:07:53.432> innovation.

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Creating<00:07:56.168> more<00:07:56.328> efficient,<00:07:56.810> more<00:07:56.906> effective<00:07:57.372> organizations,<00:07:58.256> creating<00:07:58.561> organizations<00:07:59.219> that<00:07:59.766> work<00:08:00.007> just<00:08:00.183> not<00:08:00.360> in<00:08:00.424> financial<00:08:01.131> terms<00:08:01.468> but<00:08:01.549> in<00:08:01.693> human<00:08:01.934> terms.

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But<00:08:02.657> overall,<00:08:03.155> I<00:08:03.171> don't<00:08:03.315> think<00:08:03.540> I've<00:08:03.701> been<00:08:03.813> successful<00:08:05.243> in<00:08:06.464> my<00:08:06.705> mission.

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I<00:08:07.171> don't<00:08:07.395> think<00:08:07.733> I<00:08:07.813> can<00:08:08.054> honestly<00:08:08.391> say<00:08:09.805> I<00:08:10.062> influenced<00:08:10.624> that<00:08:10.929> many<00:08:11.106> CEOs<00:08:11.989> to<00:08:13.580> transcend<00:08:16.407> their<00:08:16.631> preoccupation<00:08:17.515> with<00:08:17.676> money<00:08:17.933> and<00:08:18.013> power<00:08:18.655> and<00:08:19.041> to<00:08:19.137> stand<00:08:19.523> for<00:08:19.603> something<00:08:20.326> bigger<00:08:20.504> than<00:08:20.665> themselves,<00:08:21.327> to<00:08:21.536> do<00:08:21.698> something<00:08:22.037> that<00:08:22.198> really<00:08:22.440> makes<00:08:23.069> a<00:08:23.150> contribution<00:08:23.811> to<00:08:23.908> society.

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I<00:08:25.522> have<00:08:25.747> to<00:08:25.828> say<00:08:26.054> that<00:08:26.393> I<00:08:26.538> failed<00:08:27.377> to<00:08:27.506> some<00:08:27.748> degree.

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Why<00:08:28.571> do<00:08:28.652> you<00:08:28.797> think<00:08:28.974> that<00:08:29.200> is?

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That's<00:08:29.830> very<00:08:30.104> interesting<00:08:30.604> and<00:08:31.475> very<00:08:31.782> honest,<00:08:32.605> by<00:08:32.702> the<00:08:32.831> way.

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That's<00:08:34.218> an<00:08:34.477> interesting<00:08:35.025> take<00:08:35.654> on<00:08:38.349> the<00:08:38.478> fact<00:08:38.801> that<00:08:38.898> they<00:08:39.059> can't<00:08:39.350> get<00:08:39.550> over<00:08:40.053> money<00:08:40.538> and<00:08:40.705> power.

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Well,<00:08:43.390> I<00:08:43.475> know<00:08:43.629> I<00:08:43.646> was<00:08:43.799> listening<00:08:44.140> to<00:08:44.243> this<00:08:45.872> Arnold<00:08:46.113> Schwarzenegger<00:08:47.542> YouTube<00:08:47.960> video.

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He's<00:08:49.084> someone<00:08:49.470> who<00:08:49.582> I<00:08:49.631> happen<00:08:49.888> to<00:08:50.032> like<00:08:50.289> a<00:08:50.305> lot,<00:08:51.076> and<00:08:51.413> he<00:08:51.895> described<00:08:52.361> himself<00:08:53.004> as<00:08:53.646> looking<00:08:53.983> at<00:08:54.080> the<00:08:54.224> outside,<00:08:54.947> that<00:08:55.750> if<00:08:55.895> you<00:08:55.927> look<00:08:56.136> at<00:08:56.216> his<00:08:56.393> life<00:08:56.618> from<00:08:56.778> the<00:08:56.939> outside,<00:08:57.983> he<00:08:58.144> looks<00:08:58.481> like<00:08:58.722> he<00:08:58.882> was<00:08:59.188> very<00:08:59.461> successful.

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He<00:09:00.167> looks<00:09:00.392> like<00:09:00.569> he's<00:09:00.730> very<00:09:00.971> successful.

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He<00:09:01.934> was<00:09:02.111> a<00:09:02.256> bodybuilding<00:09:02.978> champion,<00:09:03.605> came<00:09:04.167> from<00:09:04.568> Austria.

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He<00:09:05.532> was<00:09:06.191> a<00:09:06.271> movie<00:09:06.608> star.

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He<00:09:07.219> was<00:09:07.315> the<00:09:07.460> governor<00:09:07.797> of<00:09:07.942> California.

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But<00:09:09.018> he<00:09:09.098> said,<00:09:09.965> what<00:09:10.110> you<00:09:10.206> don't<00:09:10.512> see<00:09:10.688> is<00:09:10.769> that<00:09:10.945> most<00:09:11.331> of<00:09:11.395> the<00:09:11.475> time<00:09:11.829> I<00:09:11.973> was<00:09:12.214> failing<00:09:12.600> to<00:09:12.776> do<00:09:13.001> what<00:09:13.162> I<00:09:13.258> set<00:09:13.563> out<00:09:13.660> to<00:09:13.885> do.

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Most<00:09:14.793> of<00:09:14.939> the<00:09:15.004> majority<00:09:15.541> of<00:09:15.688> time.

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So<00:09:17.705> why<00:09:17.966> is<00:09:18.193> that?

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Because<00:09:23.226> I<00:09:23.307> don't<00:09:23.534> think<00:09:23.762> I've<00:09:23.924> been<00:09:24.102> able<00:09:24.411> to<00:09:24.589> really—<00:09:25.563> when<00:09:25.677> I<00:09:25.709> talk<00:09:25.888> about<00:09:26.277> elevating<00:09:26.731> people's<00:09:27.007> aspirations<00:09:27.608> and<00:09:27.689> motivations<00:09:29.128> of<00:09:29.225> CEOs,<00:09:29.871> I<00:09:29.903> mean,<00:09:30.274> if<00:09:30.580> I<00:09:30.726> could<00:09:30.887> get<00:09:31.064> 100<00:09:32.436> that<00:09:33.146> I<00:09:33.307> would<00:09:33.581> succeed<00:09:34.130> with<00:09:34.856> or<00:09:35.001> 10,<00:09:36.227> that<00:09:36.388> would<00:09:36.953> really<00:09:37.421> have<00:09:37.534> an<00:09:37.679> impact<00:09:38.018> on<00:09:38.164> changing<00:09:38.632> the<00:09:38.713> world.

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But<00:09:39.764> I<00:09:39.861> think<00:09:40.104> most<00:09:40.266> of<00:09:40.492> them<00:09:40.670> were<00:09:41.058> more<00:09:41.300> preoccupied<00:09:42.529> with<00:09:42.691> money<00:09:43.014> and<00:09:43.241> power<00:09:44.092> than<00:09:44.237> with<00:09:44.397> anything<00:09:44.718> else.

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I<00:09:46.259> think<00:09:46.500> Bill<00:09:46.821> Gates,<00:09:47.206> who<00:09:47.463> I<00:09:47.559> never<00:09:47.865> worked<00:09:48.186> with,<00:09:48.747> is<00:09:48.844> a<00:09:48.908> pretty<00:09:49.213> good<00:09:49.373> example<00:09:49.791> of<00:09:49.887> someone<00:09:50.577> who<00:09:52.263> came<00:09:52.504> up<00:09:52.664> with<00:09:52.825> an<00:09:53.403> innovative<00:09:54.189> idea<00:09:55.489> that<00:09:55.811> had<00:09:56.212> an<00:09:56.453> impact<00:09:56.870> in<00:09:56.950> the<00:09:57.079> world<00:09:57.255> in<00:09:57.400> and<00:09:57.480> of<00:09:57.512> itself,<00:09:57.913> made<00:09:58.138> a<00:09:58.218> lot<00:09:58.379> of<00:09:58.459> money,<00:09:58.861> and<00:09:58.941> then<00:09:59.166> shifted<00:10:00.048> to<00:10:00.145> doing<00:10:00.386> something<00:10:01.108> that<00:10:02.071> really<00:10:02.328> made<00:10:02.553> a<00:10:02.633> difference.

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I<00:10:04.335> admire<00:10:04.623> him<00:10:04.800> for<00:10:04.961> that,<00:10:05.185> but<00:10:05.362> I<00:10:05.522> can't<00:10:05.763> really<00:10:06.068> think<00:10:06.309> of<00:10:06.486> too<00:10:06.662> many<00:10:07.047> others<00:10:08.588> in<00:10:08.733> that<00:10:08.893> category.

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Well,<00:10:09.696> why?

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You<00:10:10.162> asked<00:10:10.290> me<00:10:10.338> the<00:10:10.418> question<00:10:10.884> why.

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Because<00:10:11.848> I<00:10:11.944> think<00:10:12.266> people<00:10:12.587> are<00:10:13.005> small-minded<00:10:13.858> for<00:10:13.954> the—<00:10:14.742> many<00:10:14.999> of<00:10:15.080> the<00:10:15.160> CEOs<00:10:15.707> I've<00:10:15.867> run<00:10:16.060> across<00:10:16.446> are<00:10:16.607> very<00:10:16.864> small-minded,<00:10:17.877> very<00:10:18.134> petty.

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They<00:10:21.911> don't<00:10:22.573> have<00:10:22.913> a<00:10:22.978> big<00:10:23.204> enough<00:10:23.462> dream.

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My<00:10:24.901> goal<00:10:25.063> has<00:10:25.160> been<00:10:25.322> to<00:10:25.483> inspire<00:10:25.984> CEOs<00:10:26.631> and<00:10:27.908> leaders,<00:10:28.474> not<00:10:29.120> only<00:10:29.702> in<00:10:30.090> business<00:10:30.414> but<00:10:30.478> in<00:10:30.575> politics,<00:10:31.060> to<00:10:31.190> dare<00:10:31.319> to<00:10:31.464> dream,<00:10:31.787> to<00:10:32.094> have<00:10:32.336> a<00:10:32.433> bigger<00:10:32.740> dream,<00:10:33.952> to<00:10:34.372> live<00:10:34.550> their<00:10:34.695> life<00:10:35.002> consistent<00:10:35.664> with<00:10:35.826> Americans'<00:10:36.960> America's<00:10:37.378> ennobling<00:10:37.957> ideals<00:10:38.600> and<00:10:39.163> empowering<00:10:39.726> values.

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The<00:10:41.721> one<00:10:41.898> place<00:10:42.139> where<00:10:42.204> I<00:10:42.316> saw<00:10:42.541> a<00:10:42.622> big<00:10:42.863> difference<00:10:43.249> is<00:10:43.346> when<00:10:43.410> I<00:10:43.571> worked<00:10:43.828> in<00:10:43.909> the<00:10:44.053> Pentagon,<00:10:45.996> strangely<00:10:46.546> enough,<00:10:48.308> because<00:10:48.631> when<00:10:48.712> I<00:10:48.809> went<00:10:49.035> to<00:10:49.068> the<00:10:49.213> Pentagon,<00:10:49.779> I<00:10:49.876> saw<00:10:50.345> that<00:10:50.571> people,<00:10:51.234> although<00:10:51.541> people<00:10:51.880> there<00:10:52.107> were<00:10:52.285> interested<00:10:52.689> in<00:10:52.769> money<00:10:53.012> and<00:10:53.093> power<00:10:53.497> too,<00:10:54.467> I<00:10:54.612> worked<00:10:54.806> with<00:10:54.887> a<00:10:54.920> lot<00:10:55.033> of<00:10:55.178> 4-star<00:10:55.678> generals<00:10:56.179> and<00:10:56.389> admirals,<00:10:57.761> but<00:10:57.858> there<00:10:58.084> was<00:10:58.181> something<00:10:58.649> else<00:10:58.827> that<00:10:58.988> was<00:10:59.311> bigger<00:10:59.796> than<00:11:00.022> money<00:11:00.216> and<00:11:00.361> power.

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It<00:11:01.491> was<00:11:01.717> patriotism.

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I<00:11:05.556> remember<00:11:06.038> one<00:11:06.279> guy<00:11:06.520> talked<00:11:06.760> to<00:11:06.857> me<00:11:06.985> about<00:11:07.226> how<00:11:07.403> proud<00:11:07.772> he<00:11:07.949> was<00:11:08.767> to<00:11:08.928> put<00:11:09.153> on<00:11:09.249> the<00:11:09.410> cloth<00:11:09.795> of<00:11:09.907> the<00:11:10.004> nation<00:11:10.453> and<00:11:10.534> go<00:11:10.710> to<00:11:10.855> work<00:11:11.096> every<00:11:12.380> day.

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Yeah,<00:11:13.103> that's<00:11:13.344> very<00:11:13.584> interesting.

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Here's<00:11:14.211> something<00:11:14.387> I've<00:11:14.532> been<00:11:14.628> thinking<00:11:14.933> about.

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I<00:11:15.816> want<00:11:15.897> to<00:11:15.977> get<00:11:16.057> your<00:11:16.218> take<00:11:16.459> on<00:11:16.571> it.

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I<00:11:17.518> do<00:11:17.743> think<00:11:17.984> that<00:11:18.337> so<00:11:18.787> often,<00:11:19.285> and<00:11:19.686> we've<00:11:19.863> interviewed<00:11:20.714> hundreds<00:11:21.067> of<00:11:21.131> CEOs<00:11:21.773> now,<00:11:22.737> my<00:11:22.897> sense<00:11:23.379> is<00:11:24.166> they<00:11:24.342> attach<00:11:24.744> their<00:11:24.969> identity<00:11:25.691> to<00:11:26.109> what<00:11:26.349> they're<00:11:26.494> doing.

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They<00:11:27.554> attach<00:11:27.875> their<00:11:28.035> identity<00:11:28.517> to<00:11:28.678> that<00:11:28.902> title.

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To<00:11:30.125> their<00:11:30.367> company,<00:11:30.996> to<00:11:31.238> their<00:11:31.335> success,<00:11:32.626> and<00:11:32.706> that<00:11:32.868> becomes<00:11:33.255> almost<00:11:33.513> like<00:11:33.675> who<00:11:33.852> they<00:11:34.143> are<00:11:35.143> as<00:11:35.288> a<00:11:35.369> person.

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Do<00:11:36.321> you<00:11:36.418> get<00:11:36.644> that<00:11:36.821> sense<00:11:37.370> that<00:11:37.467> that<00:11:37.612> happens?

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Yeah,<00:11:38.677> I<00:11:38.822> would<00:11:38.935> agree<00:11:39.242> with<00:11:39.404> that.

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Let<00:11:41.021> me<00:11:41.183> give<00:11:41.328> you<00:11:41.409> an<00:11:41.506> example.

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I<00:11:43.188> was<00:11:43.366> working<00:11:43.674> with<00:11:43.771> a<00:11:43.787> CEO<00:11:44.725> whose<00:11:45.145> name<00:11:45.453> will<00:11:45.711> go<00:11:45.873> unmentioned.

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He<00:11:46.908> was<00:11:47.070> on<00:11:47.232> the<00:11:47.329> ExxonMobil<00:11:48.121> board<00:11:48.380> for<00:11:48.461> a<00:11:48.510> long<00:11:48.707> time,<00:11:50.257> and<00:11:50.505> he<00:11:50.670> wanted<00:11:50.999> to<00:11:51.082> work<00:11:51.247> with<00:11:51.412> me<00:11:51.511> on<00:11:51.593> a<00:11:51.741> leadership<00:11:52.170> project.

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And<00:11:57.572> I<00:11:57.669> interviewed<00:11:58.090> a<00:11:58.220> lot<00:11:58.463> of<00:11:58.884> great<00:11:59.289> leaders<00:11:59.694> for<00:11:59.937> this<00:12:00.666> project,<00:12:01.315> people<00:12:01.525> who<00:12:01.558> are<00:12:01.784> very<00:12:02.692> prominent.

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And<00:12:04.938> I<00:12:05.101> noticed<00:12:05.347> he<00:12:05.429> never<00:12:05.674> showed<00:12:05.919> any<00:12:06.149> interest<00:12:06.509> in<00:12:06.590> these<00:12:06.819> interviews.

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His<00:12:10.138> company<00:12:10.540> was<00:12:11.600> paying<00:12:11.777> me<00:12:11.986> a<00:12:12.066> lot<00:12:12.243> of<00:12:12.323> money<00:12:12.580> to<00:12:12.725> do<00:12:12.966> this,<00:12:13.930> probably<00:12:15.360> over<00:12:15.682> half<00:12:15.874> a<00:12:15.939> million<00:12:16.276> dollars,<00:12:16.983> but<00:12:17.160> he<00:12:17.288> never<00:12:17.545> showed<00:12:18.011> any<00:12:18.349> interest<00:12:18.670> in<00:12:18.751> getting<00:12:18.976> the<00:12:19.057> result.

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And<00:12:21.021> then<00:12:21.183> I<00:12:21.265> said,<00:12:21.411> well,<00:12:21.752> we're<00:12:21.849> supposed—<00:12:22.547> I<00:12:22.644> came<00:12:22.888> up<00:12:22.969> with<00:12:23.115> the<00:12:23.196> idea<00:12:23.456> of<00:12:23.602> creating<00:12:23.927> a<00:12:24.024> leadership<00:12:24.527> center<00:12:24.933> in<00:12:25.079> Utah.

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I<00:12:25.404> think<00:12:25.501> you<00:12:25.534> were<00:12:25.582> from<00:12:25.777> Utah.

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I<00:12:27.176> am.

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Yeah.

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You<00:12:29.399> may<00:12:29.562> know<00:12:29.774> the<00:12:29.873> person<00:12:30.379> I'm<00:12:30.690> thinking<00:12:30.935> of.

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I<00:12:31.131> don't<00:12:31.360> know.

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And<00:12:33.920> what<00:12:34.017> happened<00:12:34.500> was<00:12:35.788> we<00:12:35.933> were<00:12:36.013> going<00:12:36.899> to<00:12:36.995> have<00:12:41.182> a<00:12:41.262> leadership<00:12:41.729> immersion<00:12:42.228> experience<00:12:42.856> for<00:12:43.820> people<00:12:44.061> in<00:12:44.157> government,<00:12:44.720> business,<00:12:45.443> science,<00:12:46.246> the<00:12:46.326> arts,<00:12:46.664> et<00:12:46.744> cetera.

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And<00:12:48.640> we<00:12:48.897> started<00:12:49.154> moving<00:12:49.459> toward<00:12:49.684> that<00:12:49.941> and<00:12:50.006> he<00:12:50.118> never<00:12:50.905> showed<00:12:51.532> any<00:12:51.773> real<00:12:52.014> interest<00:12:52.448> in<00:12:52.579> actually<00:12:53.067> doing<00:12:53.588> that.

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It<00:12:54.468> was<00:12:54.631> like<00:12:54.875> a<00:12:54.956> plan.

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What<00:12:55.820> he<00:12:55.934> showed<00:12:56.243> interested<00:12:56.813> in<00:12:57.316> was<00:12:57.493> getting<00:12:57.896> his<00:12:58.202> name<00:12:58.524> on<00:12:58.621> the<00:12:58.782> building<00:12:59.426> at<00:12:59.587> the<00:12:59.651> University<00:13:02.791> of<00:13:02.872> Utah.

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That's<00:13:03.613> what<00:13:03.854> his<00:13:04.096> action—<00:13:05.159> separate<00:13:05.626> the<00:13:05.770> words—<00:13:06.093> his<00:13:06.270> action<00:13:06.576> was<00:13:07.060> giving<00:13:07.318> them<00:13:07.480> a<00:13:07.561> bunch<00:13:07.819> of<00:13:07.900> money<00:13:08.513> and<00:13:08.610> getting<00:13:08.852> his<00:13:09.094> name<00:13:10.047> on<00:13:10.144> this<00:13:10.386> building<00:13:11.274> at<00:13:11.355> the<00:13:11.436> University<00:13:11.985> of<00:13:12.082> Utah.

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And<00:13:14.437> I<00:13:14.534> think<00:13:14.695> what<00:13:14.839> you<00:13:14.936> said,<00:13:15.482> he—<00:13:15.884> I<00:13:15.981> think<00:13:16.206> he<00:13:16.383> identified<00:13:17.026> just<00:13:17.251> like<00:13:17.428> what<00:13:17.588> you<00:13:17.685> said<00:13:18.858> with<00:13:18.939> the<00:13:19.115> title<00:13:20.627> and<00:13:20.723> with<00:13:20.884> the<00:13:20.948> money<00:13:21.768> and<00:13:21.848> with<00:13:22.009> the<00:13:22.154> power.

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So<00:13:25.716> what<00:13:25.844> do<00:13:25.957> you<00:13:26.053> find?

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I'm<00:13:26.872> doing<00:13:27.097> all<00:13:27.193> the<00:13:27.337> talking<00:13:27.723> here.

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What<00:13:28.221> other<00:13:28.526> observations<00:13:29.168> have<00:13:29.328> you<00:13:29.425> made?

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You<00:13:29.746> said<00:13:29.971> that's<00:13:30.212> interesting.

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You've<00:13:30.822> talked<00:13:30.950> to<00:13:31.047> a<00:13:31.111> lot<00:13:31.191> of<00:13:31.352> CEOs.

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What<00:13:32.476> have<00:13:32.636> you<00:13:32.797> done?

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A<00:13:33.038> lot<00:13:33.359> like<00:13:33.600> through<00:13:33.760> this<00:13:34.306> podcast<00:13:34.884> and<00:13:35.109> obviously<00:13:36.249> through<00:13:36.409> CEO.com.

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That's<00:13:37.999> a<00:13:38.079> useful<00:13:38.417> domain<00:13:38.882> for<00:13:39.380> this<00:13:39.540> topic.

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Great,<00:13:40.584> great,<00:13:41.371> great<00:13:41.708> domain.

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Yeah,<00:13:43.073> it's<00:13:43.474> a<00:13:43.555> good<00:13:43.876> domain<00:13:44.261> for<00:13:45.481> this.

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I<00:13:46.589> wonder<00:13:46.910> though,<00:13:48.829> not<00:13:49.006> to<00:13:49.087> avoid<00:13:49.393> your<00:13:49.490> question,<00:13:50.458> but<00:13:50.603> to<00:13:50.684> flip<00:13:50.926> it<00:13:51.023> back<00:13:51.265> to<00:13:51.426> you<00:13:52.539> on—<00:13:54.330> by<00:13:54.491> the<00:13:54.571> way,<00:13:54.717> I<00:13:54.733> could<00:13:54.894> probably<00:13:55.378> guess<00:13:56.088> who<00:13:56.265> that<00:13:56.491> person<00:13:56.830> is<00:13:57.072> now<00:13:57.232> that<00:13:58.100> I've<00:13:58.502> gotten<00:13:59.080> enough<00:13:59.402> of<00:13:59.466> those<00:13:59.707> hints<00:13:59.884> and<00:14:00.044> being<00:14:00.269> from<00:14:00.510> Utah,<00:14:01.394> but<00:14:02.438> I<00:14:02.519> won't<00:14:02.615> mention<00:14:02.856> them<00:14:02.953> either.

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I<00:14:03.338> wonder<00:14:05.813> what<00:14:06.054> makes<00:14:06.327> a<00:14:06.440> great<00:14:06.697> leader<00:14:07.359> in<00:14:07.439> your<00:14:07.617> mind<00:14:08.165> when<00:14:08.310> you<00:14:08.407> see<00:14:08.955> it,<00:14:09.277> when<00:14:09.439> you<00:14:09.535> see<00:14:09.858> great<00:14:10.180> leadership,<00:14:11.615> what<00:14:11.776> is<00:14:12.034> it?

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Well,<00:14:12.599> a<00:14:12.744> few<00:14:13.066> things<00:14:13.389> come<00:14:13.647> to<00:14:13.744> mind.

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Uh,<00:14:18.059> you<00:14:18.156> know,<00:14:18.382> I'm<00:14:18.720> a<00:14:18.785> fan<00:14:19.220> of<00:14:20.557> Doris<00:14:20.960> Kearns<00:14:21.363> Goodwin,<00:14:21.782> who<00:14:22.088> wrote<00:14:22.410> the<00:14:22.507> book<00:14:22.910> The<00:14:23.313> Team<00:14:23.555> of<00:14:23.877> Rivals,<00:14:24.505> a<00:14:24.521> presidential<00:14:25.085> historian.

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Great<00:14:26.085> book.

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I've<00:14:26.359> read<00:14:26.520> that<00:14:26.698> book.

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Yeah,<00:14:27.085> that's<00:14:27.279> a<00:14:27.327> great<00:14:27.569> book.

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And<00:14:28.231> she<00:14:28.489> said<00:14:28.957> that,<00:14:29.425> uh,<00:14:30.086> what<00:14:30.312> makes<00:14:30.587> a<00:14:30.651> great<00:14:31.054> leader<00:14:31.700> comes<00:14:31.958> down<00:14:32.329> to<00:14:32.507> 4<00:14:32.668> or<00:14:32.894> 5<00:14:33.297> traits,<00:14:33.943> character<00:14:34.459> skills,<00:14:35.460> not<00:14:35.671> credentials,<00:14:36.631> that<00:14:36.793> all<00:14:37.037> great<00:14:37.363> leaders<00:14:37.753> have.

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And,<00:14:38.583> and<00:14:38.729> the<00:14:38.827> first<00:14:39.217> one<00:14:39.542> is<00:14:39.721> the<00:14:39.868> ability<00:14:41.338> to<00:14:41.418> stand<00:14:42.124> for<00:14:42.220> something<00:14:43.550> bigger<00:14:43.790> than<00:14:43.950> yourself.

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And<00:14:45.152> I<00:14:45.232> think<00:14:45.409> that<00:14:45.569> not<00:14:45.729> only<00:14:45.873> applies<00:14:46.242> to<00:14:46.370> CEOs,<00:14:47.091> but<00:14:47.556> I<00:14:47.636> think<00:14:47.796> it<00:14:47.828> applies<00:14:48.373> to<00:14:48.854> mothers<00:14:49.174> and<00:14:49.255> fathers,<00:14:49.896> because<00:14:50.440> to<00:14:50.505> have<00:14:50.761> children,<00:14:51.178> you<00:14:51.258> have<00:14:51.418> to<00:14:51.578> stand<00:14:51.979> for<00:14:52.139> something<00:14:52.604> bigger<00:14:52.860> than<00:14:53.004> yourself.

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It's<00:14:53.918> amazing<00:14:54.943> what<00:14:55.104> sacrifices<00:14:56.370> people<00:14:56.626> will<00:14:56.850> make<00:14:57.171> on<00:14:57.267> behalf<00:14:57.668> of<00:14:57.732> their<00:14:57.892> children.

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I<00:14:59.270> think<00:14:59.430> you<00:14:59.510> see<00:14:59.671> much<00:14:59.927> better<00:15:00.216> examples<00:15:00.648> of<00:15:00.792> leadership<00:15:01.289> in<00:15:01.417> the<00:15:01.578> home<00:15:01.818> than<00:15:02.796> in<00:15:03.036> work.

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So<00:15:03.757> that's<00:15:04.158> quality<00:15:04.478> number<00:15:04.863> one.

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Second,<00:15:09.049> Character,<00:15:10.076> basic<00:15:10.413> character.

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I<00:15:12.034> think<00:15:12.644> it<00:15:12.740> was<00:15:13.366> Heraclitus,<00:15:14.024> the<00:15:14.104> Greek<00:15:15.147> historian,<00:15:16.094> philosopher,<00:15:16.688> he<00:15:16.832> said,<00:15:17.715> "Character<00:15:18.116> is<00:15:18.277> destiny."<00:15:19.705> And<00:15:19.801> what<00:15:20.026> you<00:15:20.122> see<00:15:20.524> in<00:15:20.764> every<00:15:21.069> single<00:15:21.487> time<00:15:22.129> when<00:15:22.289> a<00:15:22.369> leader<00:15:22.674> has<00:15:23.637> good<00:15:23.814> character,<00:15:25.178> like<00:15:25.563> for<00:15:25.659> example,<00:15:26.686> FDR<00:15:28.227> or<00:15:28.307> George<00:15:28.628> Washington<00:15:29.254> would<00:15:29.350> be<00:15:29.511> the<00:15:29.671> consummate<00:15:30.169> example,<00:15:31.260> they<00:15:31.501> win<00:15:31.742> people's<00:15:32.159> trust.

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They<00:15:34.772> accumulate<00:15:35.644> power.

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They're<00:15:36.951> able<00:15:37.194> to<00:15:37.339> do<00:15:37.500> things<00:15:37.775> that<00:15:37.904> make<00:15:38.146> a<00:15:38.243> difference.

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George<00:15:38.969> Washington<00:15:39.437> created<00:15:39.792> a<00:15:39.809> new<00:15:40.002> country.

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So<00:15:40.906> that's<00:15:41.390> stand<00:15:42.020> for<00:15:42.068> something<00:15:42.359> bigger<00:15:42.536> than<00:15:42.650> yourself.

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Character,<00:15:44.776> which<00:15:44.954> means<00:15:45.360> basically<00:15:45.830> honesty<00:15:46.317> and<00:15:46.398> integrity.

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George<00:15:47.697> Washington<00:15:48.281> never<00:15:48.671> took<00:15:48.865> a<00:15:49.011> penny<00:15:49.271> in<00:15:49.644> remuneration.

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The<00:15:51.734> second<00:15:52.253> is<00:15:53.145> ambition.

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You<00:15:55.367> know,<00:15:55.513> one<00:15:55.740> of<00:15:55.821> the<00:15:55.902> things<00:15:56.243> I<00:15:56.340> notice<00:15:57.524> is<00:15:57.686> I<00:15:57.848> talk<00:15:58.027> to<00:15:58.189> a<00:15:58.270> lot<00:15:58.448> of<00:15:58.513> young<00:15:58.838> people<00:15:59.756> is<00:16:00.013> that<00:16:00.656> you,<00:16:00.977> you,<00:16:01.282> you<00:16:01.379> can<00:16:01.523> have<00:16:01.700> a<00:16:01.764> lot<00:16:01.941> of<00:16:02.021> talent,<00:16:02.824> but<00:16:02.984> if<00:16:03.145> you<00:16:03.306> don't<00:16:03.611> have<00:16:04.751> personal<00:16:05.297> and<00:16:05.474> organizational<00:16:06.437> ambition,<00:16:07.642> you're<00:16:07.754> never<00:16:08.027> going<00:16:08.124> to<00:16:08.204> be<00:16:08.365> a<00:16:08.381> leader.

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You<00:16:08.991> have<00:16:09.232> to<00:16:09.328> have<00:16:09.553> the<00:16:09.633> ambition<00:16:10.051> to<00:16:10.211> be<00:16:10.292> a<00:16:10.308> leader.

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And<00:16:10.774> a<00:16:10.918> lot<00:16:11.095> of<00:16:11.239> people<00:16:11.898> are<00:16:11.978> really<00:16:12.283> lacking<00:16:12.765> that.

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A<00:16:13.648> lot<00:16:13.825> of<00:16:14.050> parents<00:16:14.612> don't<00:16:14.869> encourage<00:16:15.335> their<00:16:15.511> kids<00:16:15.977> to<00:16:16.234> have<00:16:16.475> them—<00:16:16.796> they<00:16:16.860> encourage<00:16:17.342> them<00:16:17.503> to<00:16:17.663> get<00:16:17.840> all<00:16:18.017> A's<00:16:18.547> on<00:16:18.627> the<00:16:18.723> test,<00:16:19.044> but<00:16:19.141> they<00:16:19.285> don't<00:16:19.526> encourage<00:16:19.944> them<00:16:20.088> to<00:16:20.249> have<00:16:20.795> ambition.

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But,<00:16:21.855> and<00:16:21.935> there's<00:16:22.160> two—<00:16:22.674> and<00:16:23.140> there's<00:16:23.525> what<00:16:24.103> Doris<00:16:24.360> Kearns<00:16:24.665> Goodwin<00:16:25.147> calls<00:16:25.629> the<00:16:26.433> doubleness<00:16:27.080> of<00:16:27.225> ambition.

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And<00:16:29.667> a<00:16:29.812> good<00:16:29.974> example<00:16:30.556> is<00:16:30.944> of<00:16:31.688> both<00:16:31.996> of<00:16:32.076> those<00:16:32.642> is<00:16:34.502> two<00:16:34.664> good<00:16:34.761> examples<00:16:35.262> are<00:16:35.472> Abraham<00:16:35.812> Lincoln<00:16:37.651> and<00:16:37.748> Lyndon<00:16:38.070> Johnson.

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Both<00:16:40.168> of<00:16:40.313> them<00:16:40.813> were<00:16:41.120> extremely<00:16:42.104> ambitious<00:16:43.540> on<00:16:43.636> getting<00:16:44.024> their<00:16:44.282> way<00:16:44.588> to<00:16:45.573> the<00:16:45.655> presidency.

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Lincoln's<00:16:47.768> law<00:16:47.996> partner,<00:16:48.564> William<00:16:48.906> Herndon,<00:16:49.475> called<00:16:49.784> him<00:16:49.946> a<00:16:50.044> little<00:16:50.369> engine<00:16:51.100> of<00:16:51.263> ambition.

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Who<00:16:52.248> was<00:16:52.425> constantly<00:16:53.553> plotting<00:16:54.439> and<00:16:54.600> planning<00:16:55.067> and<00:16:55.164> scheming.

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You<00:16:56.162> don't<00:16:56.855> think<00:16:57.113> of<00:16:57.258> Lincoln<00:16:57.967> like<00:16:58.208> that.

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You<00:16:58.450> think<00:16:58.627> of<00:16:59.191> at<00:16:59.336> the<00:16:59.432> Lincoln<00:16:59.674> Memorial<00:17:00.238> in<00:17:00.318> Washington<00:17:00.770> with<00:17:00.883> his<00:17:01.176> hand<00:17:01.436> held.

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He<00:17:01.939> was<00:17:02.167> constantly<00:17:02.671> plotting<00:17:03.077> and<00:17:03.158> planning<00:17:03.483> and<00:17:03.629> scheming<00:17:04.474> to<00:17:04.686> get<00:17:04.946> to<00:17:05.108> the<00:17:05.206> top.

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The<00:17:08.123> same<00:17:08.529> applies<00:17:09.033> to<00:17:09.260> Lyndon<00:17:09.585> Johnson.

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He<00:17:10.235> was<00:17:10.479> extremely<00:17:11.291> ambitious.

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He<00:17:13.322> would<00:17:13.630> cajole,<00:17:14.603> bully,<00:17:16.078> please,<00:17:18.429> bribe,<00:17:18.899> do<00:17:18.996> anything<00:17:19.418> necessary<00:17:20.131> to<00:17:20.277> get<00:17:20.537> power.

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But<00:17:21.631> what's<00:17:21.792> interesting<00:17:22.132> about<00:17:22.391> those<00:17:22.617> two<00:17:22.779> guys<00:17:23.102> is<00:17:24.476> once<00:17:24.961> they<00:17:25.285> got<00:17:25.608> to<00:17:25.770> a<00:17:25.851> position<00:17:26.400> of<00:17:26.497> power,<00:17:26.982> they<00:17:27.144> developed<00:17:28.033> what<00:17:28.179> I<00:17:28.276> call<00:17:28.906> organizational<00:17:29.794> ambition,<00:17:30.843> the<00:17:30.940> desire<00:17:31.424> to<00:17:31.586> do<00:17:31.747> something<00:17:32.151> to<00:17:32.296> make<00:17:32.538> a<00:17:32.635> difference.

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I'm<00:17:33.426> sure<00:17:33.668> you're<00:17:33.829> probably<00:17:34.168> familiar<00:17:34.572> with<00:17:34.733> their<00:17:34.878> stories<00:17:35.379> to<00:17:35.475> some<00:17:35.718> extent.

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As<00:17:36.492> you<00:17:36.589> know,<00:17:36.977> Lincoln<00:17:37.719> became<00:17:38.010> president<00:17:38.752> and<00:17:40.526> issued<00:17:40.801> the<00:17:40.930> Emancipation<00:17:41.672> Proclamation.

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While<00:17:43.124> he<00:17:43.269> was<00:17:43.447> running,<00:17:44.092> he<00:17:44.253> disguised<00:17:44.818> that<00:17:44.915> he<00:17:45.060> was<00:17:45.238> against<00:17:45.528> slavery,<00:17:47.077> but<00:17:47.303> when<00:17:47.400> he<00:17:47.545> was<00:17:47.610> there,<00:17:47.809> he<00:17:47.958> admitted<00:17:48.290> he<00:17:48.456> hated<00:17:48.721> slavery<00:17:49.219> all<00:17:49.302> his<00:17:49.551> life.

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I<00:17:50.252> mean,<00:17:50.396> that<00:17:50.814> changed<00:17:51.135> the<00:17:51.280> course<00:17:51.552> of<00:17:51.617> human<00:17:51.874> history.

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Yeah,<00:17:53.768> he<00:17:53.849> had<00:17:54.025> to<00:17:54.105> lie<00:17:54.346> about<00:17:54.651> it<00:17:54.684> or<00:17:54.892> else<00:17:55.053> he<00:17:55.149> wouldn't<00:17:55.438> have<00:17:55.711> gotten<00:17:55.936> elected.

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It<00:17:57.782> was<00:17:58.425> a<00:17:58.505> challenge<00:17:58.778> for<00:17:58.922> him.

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And<00:17:59.244> Johnson,<00:17:59.709> you<00:18:00.127> know,<00:18:00.271> he<00:18:00.432> came<00:18:00.624> in<00:18:01.251> due<00:18:01.395> to<00:18:01.508> an<00:18:01.636> assassination.

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That's<00:18:02.680> crazy.

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And<00:18:04.703> when<00:18:04.783> he<00:18:05.088> first<00:18:05.329> came<00:18:05.586> in<00:18:05.747> during<00:18:05.971> his<00:18:06.148> first<00:18:06.341> 100<00:18:06.694> days,<00:18:06.951> it's<00:18:07.111> just<00:18:07.497> a<00:18:07.513> topic<00:18:07.994> I've<00:18:08.139> written<00:18:08.332> a<00:18:08.460> book<00:18:08.653> about.

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They<00:18:10.547> asked<00:18:10.708> him,<00:18:10.869> what<00:18:10.981> do<00:18:11.013> you<00:18:11.109> want<00:18:11.254> to<00:18:11.350> accomplish<00:18:11.784> in<00:18:11.912> your<00:18:12.009> first<00:18:12.249> 100<00:18:12.490> days?

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He<00:18:13.213> said,<00:18:13.357> I<00:18:13.598> want<00:18:13.935> to<00:18:13.968> pass<00:18:14.257> a<00:18:14.321> civil<00:18:14.658> rights<00:18:15.124> bill.

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Are<00:18:15.847> you<00:18:15.928> familiar<00:18:16.332> with<00:18:16.429> that?

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Oh,<00:18:17.222> yeah.

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And<00:18:17.642> then<00:18:17.966> his<00:18:18.127> staff<00:18:18.596> said,<00:18:20.149> Lyndon,<00:18:20.456> if<00:18:20.537> you<00:18:20.714> do<00:18:20.876> that,<00:18:21.103> you're<00:18:21.183> going<00:18:21.345> to<00:18:21.442> burn<00:18:21.685> up<00:18:21.911> all<00:18:22.008> your<00:18:22.170> political<00:18:22.736> capital.

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You<00:18:23.318> must<00:18:23.609> be<00:18:23.706> crazy.

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And<00:18:24.664> his<00:18:24.828> response<00:18:25.385> was,<00:18:25.958> then<00:18:26.139> what<00:18:26.450> the<00:18:26.614> hell<00:18:26.860> is<00:18:27.023> the<00:18:27.122> presidency<00:18:27.777> for?

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So<00:18:31.734> I<00:18:31.895> think<00:18:32.232> that<00:18:32.537> what<00:18:32.634> it<00:18:32.698> takes<00:18:32.955> to<00:18:33.036> be<00:18:33.180> a<00:18:33.277> leader<00:18:33.999> is,<00:18:34.305> is<00:18:34.465> this—<00:18:35.124> these<00:18:35.349> character<00:18:35.783> skills,<00:18:36.361> standing<00:18:37.052> for<00:18:37.132> something<00:18:37.373> bigger<00:18:37.566> than<00:18:37.711> yourself,<00:18:38.016> character<00:18:38.418> skills,<00:18:39.350> personal<00:18:39.533> and<00:18:39.617> organizational<00:18:40.369> ambition.

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Empathy.

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If<00:18:43.508> you<00:18:43.605> don't<00:18:43.832> have<00:18:44.300> that,<00:18:44.543> in<00:18:44.640> order<00:18:44.866> to<00:18:44.963> be<00:18:45.108> a<00:18:45.205> leader,<00:18:45.529> you<00:18:45.610> have<00:18:45.836> to<00:18:45.997> care<00:18:46.886> about<00:18:47.145> other<00:18:47.307> people.

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You're<00:18:48.551> not<00:18:48.745> leading<00:18:49.004> for<00:18:49.165> yourself.

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Theodore<00:18:53.017> Roosevelt<00:18:53.808> was<00:18:53.986> born<00:18:54.292> into<00:18:54.470> a<00:18:54.551> patrician<00:18:55.584> class.

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He<00:18:57.456> was,<00:18:58.166> and<00:19:00.264> he<00:19:00.377> never<00:19:00.668> had<00:19:00.829> any<00:19:00.991> contact<00:19:01.475> with<00:19:01.540> poor<00:19:01.733> people.

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But<00:19:02.215> when<00:19:02.440> he<00:19:02.859> ran<00:19:03.245> for<00:19:03.325> the<00:19:03.969> local<00:19:04.291> legislature<00:19:05.015> in<00:19:05.079> New<00:19:05.256> York,<00:19:06.093> Samuel<00:19:06.640> Gompers<00:19:07.187> took<00:19:07.428> him<00:19:07.766> around<00:19:08.249> to<00:19:08.474> visit<00:19:09.242> the<00:19:09.386> tobacco<00:19:09.884> factories<00:19:10.687> in<00:19:10.768> New<00:19:10.912> York<00:19:11.089> City,<00:19:11.410> which<00:19:11.507> were<00:19:11.651> basically<00:19:12.053> apartments<00:19:13.016> where<00:19:13.402> men,<00:19:13.723> women,<00:19:13.980> and<00:19:14.125> children<00:19:14.606> lived.

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And<00:19:15.410> he<00:19:15.506> saw<00:19:15.827> the<00:19:15.907> suffering<00:19:16.470> that<00:19:16.630> was<00:19:16.791> there<00:19:17.112> and<00:19:17.353> how<00:19:17.755> the<00:19:17.835> tobacco<00:19:18.397> was<00:19:18.558> in<00:19:18.718> people's<00:19:19.120> food<00:19:20.324> and<00:19:20.710> in<00:19:20.887> their<00:19:21.127> beds.

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And<00:19:22.702> he<00:19:22.814> decided—<00:19:23.376> he<00:19:23.601> developed<00:19:24.324> something<00:19:24.645> that<00:19:24.725> he<00:19:24.806> called<00:19:25.063> fellow<00:19:25.464> feeling.

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So<00:19:27.151> that's—<00:19:28.098> empathy<00:19:28.821> is<00:19:28.998> critical.

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One<00:19:30.026> of<00:19:30.106> the<00:19:30.202> changes,<00:19:30.748> one<00:19:30.845> of<00:19:30.925> the<00:19:30.989> things<00:19:31.150> that's<00:19:31.310> going<00:19:31.567> on<00:19:31.808> today<00:19:32.194> is<00:19:32.371> that<00:19:33.318> there<00:19:33.655> are<00:19:34.121> people<00:19:34.459> in<00:19:34.603> government<00:19:35.486> And<00:19:35.567> I<00:19:35.727> place<00:19:35.984> it,<00:19:36.129> say<00:19:36.306> they're<00:19:36.450> ambitious,<00:19:37.028> but<00:19:37.109> I'm<00:19:37.269> not<00:19:37.430> sure<00:19:37.639> how<00:19:37.831> empathetic<00:19:38.458> they<00:19:39.421> are.

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Number<00:19:40.787> 3<00:19:41.269> would<00:19:41.445> be<00:19:41.847> responsibility.

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If<00:19:43.035> you<00:19:43.132> feel<00:19:43.758> empathy,<00:19:44.818> you<00:19:44.898> see<00:19:45.075> somebody<00:19:45.541> suffering.

00:19:46.023 --> 00:19:57.555
Buddha<00:19:46.264> said,<00:19:47.950> "Compassion<00:19:48.592> is<00:19:48.689> experiencing<00:19:49.299> other<00:19:49.476> people's<00:19:49.829> suffering<00:19:50.183> as<00:19:50.279> your<00:19:50.440> own."<00:19:50.616> If<00:19:50.745> you<00:19:50.825> see<00:19:51.002> people<00:19:51.307> suffering<00:19:53.074> and<00:19:53.154> you<00:19:53.250> feel<00:19:53.555> empathy,<00:19:54.696> it's<00:19:54.856> natural<00:19:55.258> to<00:19:55.419> want<00:19:55.659> to<00:19:55.724> take<00:19:55.900> responsibility<00:19:56.880> to<00:19:57.025> help<00:19:57.346> them.

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Lyndon<00:19:58.293> Johnson<00:19:58.711> said<00:19:59.113> that<00:20:00.060> government<00:20:00.703> is<00:20:00.799> to<00:20:00.944> help<00:20:01.185> people<00:20:01.923> who<00:20:01.988> aren't<00:20:02.309> in<00:20:02.341> a<00:20:02.405> position<00:20:02.887> to<00:20:02.967> help<00:20:03.272> themselves.

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Empathy.

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The<00:20:07.796> next<00:20:08.165> is<00:20:08.806> humility.

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By<00:20:10.345> humility,<00:20:11.051> I<00:20:11.067> don't<00:20:11.372> mean<00:20:11.692> humbleness.

00:20:12.574 --> 00:20:17.946
I<00:20:12.654> mean<00:20:13.296> the<00:20:13.376> kind<00:20:13.552> of<00:20:13.600> humility<00:20:14.819> where<00:20:14.996> you're<00:20:15.172> the<00:20:15.316> first<00:20:15.861> one<00:20:16.278> to<00:20:16.439> admit<00:20:17.000> that<00:20:17.160> you've<00:20:17.305> made<00:20:17.545> a<00:20:17.561> mistake.

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You<00:20:18.122> can<00:20:18.363> own<00:20:18.523> up<00:20:18.684> to<00:20:18.748> your<00:20:18.860> mistake.

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So<00:20:20.448> those<00:20:21.089> are<00:20:21.249> some<00:20:21.426> of<00:20:21.490> the<00:20:21.570> qualities<00:20:21.907> that<00:20:22.051> all<00:20:22.276> great<00:20:22.532> leaders<00:20:22.917> have<00:20:24.039> and<00:20:24.617> the<00:20:24.761> qualities<00:20:25.418> that<00:20:27.263> I<00:20:27.407> think<00:20:27.599> any<00:20:27.760> CEOs—<00:20:28.545> this<00:20:28.722> is<00:20:28.802> a<00:20:28.866> CEO<00:20:29.187> podcast—<00:20:29.892> should<00:20:30.213> aspire<00:20:30.694> to.

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I<00:20:30.951> think,<00:20:31.352> interestingly<00:20:32.137> enough,<00:20:32.394> I<00:20:32.474> think<00:20:32.715> the<00:20:33.099> problem<00:20:33.420> with<00:20:33.516> a<00:20:33.596> lot<00:20:33.757> of<00:20:33.837> our<00:20:33.933> CEOs<00:20:34.478> is<00:20:34.543> their<00:20:34.703> ambition<00:20:35.120> isn't<00:20:35.360> big<00:20:35.585> enough.

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It<00:20:37.829> stops<00:20:38.326> at<00:20:38.871> the<00:20:38.967> profitability<00:20:39.849> index<00:20:40.714> for<00:20:41.371> this<00:20:41.596> quarter<00:20:42.349> or<00:20:42.477> this<00:20:42.718> year.

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But<00:20:43.455> you<00:20:43.535> can<00:20:43.760> understand<00:20:44.240> that<00:20:44.417> because<00:20:44.962> if<00:20:45.282> they<00:20:45.378> don't<00:20:45.555> achieve<00:20:46.356> the<00:20:46.500> profit<00:20:46.965> and<00:20:47.013> the<00:20:47.126> growth,<00:20:47.783> they<00:20:47.863> get<00:20:48.023> fired.

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So<00:20:48.825> I<00:20:48.969> hope<00:20:49.209> that's<00:20:49.450> a<00:20:49.546> good<00:20:49.770> answer<00:20:50.091> to<00:20:50.123> your<00:20:50.331> question.

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I<00:20:51.229> enjoyed<00:20:51.630> sharing<00:20:51.950> that<00:20:52.191> with<00:20:52.335> you.

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No,<00:20:52.992> yeah,<00:20:53.457> that<00:20:53.617> was<00:20:53.954> incredible.

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Thank<00:20:54.819> you<00:20:54.915> so<00:20:55.060> much.

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And<00:20:55.941> we<00:20:56.037> need<00:20:56.118> to<00:20:56.150> have<00:20:56.342> you<00:20:56.438> back<00:20:56.743> on<00:20:57.159> even<00:20:57.400> for<00:20:58.666> a<00:20:58.746> longer<00:20:59.067> period<00:20:59.339> of<00:20:59.387> time<00:20:59.484> because<00:20:59.708> I'd<00:20:59.804> love<00:20:59.964> to<00:21:00.061> talk<00:21:00.285> to<00:21:00.445> you,<00:21:00.509> even<00:21:00.686> go<00:21:00.846> deep<00:21:01.070> on<00:21:01.167> some<00:21:01.327> of<00:21:01.391> these<00:21:02.529> people<00:21:02.769> you've<00:21:02.930> written<00:21:03.106> about<00:21:03.314> and<00:21:03.411> stuff.

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But<00:21:04.757> in<00:21:04.853> the<00:21:04.949> interest<00:21:05.254> of<00:21:05.334> time,<00:21:06.215> we<00:21:06.376> end<00:21:06.472> every<00:21:06.632> interview<00:21:07.001> with<00:21:07.161> the<00:21:07.257> same<00:21:07.498> question,<00:21:08.523> and<00:21:08.604> that<00:21:08.796> is<00:21:08.956> at<00:21:09.020> CEO.com,<00:21:09.822> we<00:21:09.966> believe<00:21:10.222> the<00:21:10.367> chances<00:21:10.783> one<00:21:11.104> gives<00:21:11.729> is<00:21:11.825> just<00:21:12.066> as<00:21:12.146> important<00:21:12.530> as<00:21:12.611> the<00:21:12.707> chances<00:21:13.107> one<00:21:13.268> takes.

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When<00:21:14.534> you<00:21:14.774> hear<00:21:14.951> that,<00:21:15.191> who<00:21:15.351> gave<00:21:15.576> you<00:21:15.672> a<00:21:15.736> chance<00:21:16.057> to<00:21:16.137> get<00:21:16.297> you<00:21:16.329> to<00:21:16.457> where<00:21:16.634> you<00:21:16.794> are<00:21:16.938> today?

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Well,<00:21:17.980> I<00:21:18.541> was<00:21:18.781> actually<00:21:19.823> the<00:21:19.919> person<00:21:20.304> that<00:21:20.400> called<00:21:20.721> me<00:21:20.801> up<00:21:20.961> on<00:21:21.041> the<00:21:21.137> phone<00:21:21.602> and<00:21:21.698> said,<00:21:22.323> do<00:21:22.388> you<00:21:22.548> want<00:21:22.740> to<00:21:22.804> come<00:21:23.045> and<00:21:23.125> give<00:21:23.365> a<00:21:23.445> talk<00:21:24.070> in<00:21:24.151> the<00:21:24.231> middle<00:21:24.551> of<00:21:24.647> a<00:21:24.728> blizzard?

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I<00:21:26.186> think<00:21:26.491> it<00:21:26.651> was<00:21:26.875> back<00:21:27.116> in<00:21:27.212> 1978,<00:21:28.975> and<00:21:29.360> I<00:21:29.520> was<00:21:29.616> scared<00:21:30.017> stiff<00:21:30.642> after<00:21:31.363> I<00:21:31.475> started<00:21:31.780> giving<00:21:32.020> the<00:21:32.165> talk.

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And<00:21:33.144> in<00:21:33.241> the<00:21:33.322> middle<00:21:33.708> of<00:21:33.853> the<00:21:33.950> talk,<00:21:34.820> I<00:21:34.868> don't<00:21:34.997> even<00:21:35.077> remember<00:21:35.399> the<00:21:35.480> person's<00:21:35.883> name<00:21:36.124> right<00:21:36.350> now.

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I<00:21:37.316> had<00:21:37.445> to<00:21:37.558> go<00:21:37.606> to<00:21:37.735> the<00:21:37.815> back<00:21:38.073> of<00:21:38.138> the<00:21:38.218> room<00:21:38.379> and<00:21:38.540> bend<00:21:38.766> over<00:21:39.024> so<00:21:39.249> I<00:21:39.346> could<00:21:39.507> breathe.

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I<00:21:40.151> was<00:21:40.377> almost<00:21:40.699> out<00:21:40.779> of<00:21:40.860> breath.

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But<00:21:41.359> by<00:21:41.520> the<00:21:41.746> end,<00:21:41.858> it<00:21:41.987> was—<00:21:42.164> it<00:21:42.711> was<00:21:42.872> a<00:21:42.968> triumph.

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But<00:21:43.676> that's<00:21:43.870> a<00:21:44.014> very<00:21:44.256> good<00:21:44.401> question.

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That's<00:21:45.221> a<00:21:45.366> very,<00:21:45.688> very<00:21:45.929> good<00:21:46.653> question.

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You<00:21:47.168> seem<00:21:47.474> like<00:21:47.699> a<00:21:47.860> very<00:21:50.120> committed<00:21:51.172> person<00:21:51.593> and<00:21:51.755> a<00:21:51.901> wonderful<00:21:52.402> person.

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And<00:21:53.778> I'm<00:21:53.924> sure<00:21:54.166> you're<00:21:54.263> a<00:21:54.344> great<00:21:54.911> family<00:21:55.332> man.

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And<00:21:56.657> I<00:21:56.838> really<00:21:57.085> thank<00:21:57.331> you<00:21:57.414> for<00:21:57.562> the<00:21:57.726> opportunity.

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Thank<00:21:58.647> you,<00:21:58.729> my<00:21:58.894> friend.

00:22:00.514 --> 00:22:06.469
Your<00:22:00.675> questions<00:22:01.498> that<00:22:01.660> you<00:22:01.740> sent<00:22:02.370> prior<00:22:02.935> to<00:22:03.580> this<00:22:03.758> interview,<00:22:05.049> it<00:22:05.129> stimulated<00:22:05.839> these<00:22:06.082> ideas.

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Yeah,<00:22:07.711> that's<00:22:08.018> great.

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Thank<00:22:08.599> you<00:22:08.680> so<00:22:08.890> much,<00:22:09.069> my<00:22:09.167> friend.

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Appreciate<00:22:10.050> you<00:22:10.148> being<00:22:10.377> on.